Inosanto / Lacosta Blend – seguida / abecedario

Discussion in 'JKD-Kali' started by JPR, Oct 14, 2005.

  1. JPR

    JPR New Member

    I am a bit confused on the difference between a seguida and an abecedario. I’ll write what I know, or at least a bit of it, to give a frame of reference for replies.

    In the Inosanto / Lacosta Blend, an abecedario is where I receive / respond to an attack and then follow up with a set counter attack. The level of the abecedario depends upon whether I receive one or more strikes and whether I reply with one or more strikes, am I retreating / advanceing, and environmental situations (terrain etc.). I believe I have seen 12 levels listed.

    Now I understand a seguida to also be a set pattern reply. The only times I have done them have been out of a blitz (1 / 2 combination) followed by the seguida. However, I have seen a web page that defines seguida as a “follow the force” type strike.

    Can someone help clear this up for me?

    Also, how many seguidas from Inosanto / Lacosta are you aware of? Again, I think I have seen two sets (1 and 5) but I am not sure.

    Jerry
     
  2. Black Grass

    Black Grass Junior Member

    Jerry,

    The seguidas actually come from Pekiti Tirsia how many there are a Pekiti Tirsia International (McGrath's org) guy would probably know, I'm not sure if PTGO (Gaje) still train this as it might be what they call old technology.

    As for the defention meaning follow the force, it depends on which website you saw this. Definitions for the same word vary from system to system.

    Vince
    aka Black Grass
     
  3. Epa

    Epa Member

    Jerry,

    In the Inosanto blend Abecedario refers to a training method, where one partner feeds another one techniques. At it's most basic level it is a training method that allows you to practice your basic techniques and concentrate only on them without having to react to a resisting partner. It is like practicing your abc's (which I believe is what the term Abecedario is derived from). Some people also use the term numerado (which I believe comes from the Villabrille system), which refers to training by the numbers. As far as I know, you don't need to perform any set pattern with abecedario because it's a training method and not a specific drill. So the training method's possibilities are really only limited by your own creativity. I believe that this definition of Abecedario comes from the Lacoste system.

    Definitions can be tricky in any Filipino Martial Art because most of us in the US simply don't have a grasp of the language (s) involved, I know I don't. In any blended system, this problem becomes worse because if the blend pulls from a variety of teachers who all have different backgrounds and dialects, as the Inosanto blend does, then you will often have different terms to describe the same drill or technique, which are all valid, but different. You could also have one term with different meanings in different systems.

    For example, Abecedario as Guro Inosanto uses it refers to a training method. I was told that Abecedario in the Pekiti Tirsia system refers to the striking basics or variations of the numbering system. Abecedario in the Balintawak system (as taught by Ted Buot) refers to your basic block, check, counter drill which is one of the core drills in the system. Guro Inosanto once mentioned that the traditional Abecedario Contradas in the Lacoste system refers to 12 counters to each of the basic twelve angles making a total of 144 counters. Guro Inosanto does not typically teach it this way anymore, but that's how he was taught by Lacoste. One term like Abecedario can have so many different meanings that you have to really pay attention to the context in which it is used to tell what a person is talking about. Despite the variety, there is at least a common theme with abecedario in that it refers to training the basics, in one way or another all of the above uses of the term refer to the basics.

    Seguidas is another term that is used by several different arts. Black Grass already mentioned how it's used in Pekiti Tirsia. In the Inosanto blend system, it typically refers to a follow up combination of some sort. I think it might have a translation along the line of routes or paths (don't know what dialect) because that's how I've had Seguidas described to me in the past, they are routes that you can follow to strike in combination. Several of the systems in the blend have their own sets of seguidas and they were often trained as solo combinations before they were put into partner drills.

    I know both the Illustrisimo (Regino) and Lacoste systems have Seguidas sets that are similar to the Pekiti Tirsia ones that I have seen, the four count combinations. I've also seen one seguida from the Lacoste system that is done as a form to the four cardinal directions, I believe it's the first seguidas set. I think, the seguidas set that you learned in Waterloo is the second set from the Lacoste system. Though I wouldn't worry too much about the numbers because Guro Inosanto will often mix the lists combining a Pekiti combo, with an Illustrisimo and so forth. Sometimes he'll just say the wrong name and if you try to pin it down too much it just gets confusing. The important thing is that you have all of the combinations in the set, not the set itself because he's said that the sets have and probably will change because he tinkers with them.

    I hope that answers your questions.

    Eric
     
  4. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    Not sure about the arts mentioned in thr title, yet in Balintawak I can answer.

    Abecedario is where the teacher strikes 1 - 12 in order feeding the punyo and the student blocks and counter strikes and the teacher does not block.

    Seguidas is where the teacher stikes the belly of the cane in no particular order and the student blocks and counters, and the teacher blocks.

    Both of these make of the fundamentals of Balintawak.
     
  5. Danny T

    Danny T New Member

    In Pekiti-Tirsia the Abcedario is the beginning set of movements taught after learning footwork. There are 12 sets of 12 movements which teach basic body movement with stepping while learning the attack targets, and how to strike the targets utilizing horizontal, vertical, diagonal, and thrusting attacks. Seguidas Set is the bridge between the intermediate and advanced systems. If my understanding is correct, from what I was explained by both Tuhon McGrath and GT Gaje, Seguidas come from the word segui to which there is no direct translation. The use of segui would be liken to watching a football game and as a player were running down field we would yell "Go, Go, Go!!" or continue, continue, continue would be a closer translation. In the context of fighting it would be "Attack, attack, attack". In the Visiayan they would use "Segui, Segui, Segui!!"
    The Seguidas are 3 sets of 12 combinations of weapon manipulation or attacks utilizing all the weapon categories along with footwork covering largo, medio, and corto ranges as well as the very close range know as Pekiti Pekiti. The techniques that comprise each set are not statically held with-in the numerical finite form but are rooted in the principles of the attacks and taught within the combative drills. Once the practitioner knows and understands these principles structured in the proper order of progression, they serve as keys to unlimited technique creation.


    Danny
     
  6. Silence_sucks

    Silence_sucks New Member

    you asked the difference between abecedario and 'SEGUIDA' right? well unless you are referring to something else seguida means to follow and is used in Largo mano range where you strike the opponents attacking limb in the same direction of the swing. You are right this means to follow the force as opposed to Contra which is meet the force, ordabis -back hand, tigbis -forehand and lastigo - dodge and strike. abecedario on the other hand means alphabet, therefore the basics and refers to a feeder-receiver setup as opposed to sumbrada which is counter for counter.
     
  7. equilibrium

    equilibrium New Member

    I may have a thing or two wrong here but what the heck:

    1. both inosanto and lacoste were influenced by pekiti tirsia.

    2. in pekiti tirsia, and I know nothing of filipino languages, which were sometimes influenced by spanish but I do know spanish

    Abecedario = ABCs as in the alphabet, in pekiti tirsia this is one of twelve methods and the method has two forms, which both show different ways of manipulation of the weapon with different angles and energies and targets. No drills associated with these really, just teaches basics of manipulation of the weapon.

    Seguidas = follow ups as in the spanish verb seguir-> to follow which explains other systems using the same word for other techniques such as following behind a strike.

    in pekiti tirsia these are follow ups. How to follow up on a first hit. There are 3 sets of 12 and involve the different ranges.
     
  8. Epa

    Epa Member

    Guro Dan was influenced by Tuhon Gaje and credits him as one of his FMA teachers.

    John Lacoste was not trained by Tuhon Gaje. He was born in the late 1800s and emigrated to the United States before World War Two. The bulk of his training took place in the Philippines before he emigrated. He died in 1978 in Stockton, California. Tuhon Gaje emigrated to the US in 1972 and lived in New York (or at least on the East Coast).

    The only way Manong Lacoste would have been influenced by Pekiti Tirsia was if he trained with any of the Tortal brothers in Negros before WW2. In Guro Dan's book one of the styles that Manong Lacoste mentioned he liked was a style from Negros, but no specifics of the style are mentioned.

    There is no direct evidence that Manong Lacoste trained in Pekiti Tirsia. If you have any sources showing he trained with the Tortal brothers I'd like to see them because it's hard to find much information about Manong Lacoste's early training.
     
  9. wesbennett100

    wesbennett100 New Member

    Well, if you aren't overloaded or confused by now -- I certainly am. hahahalol.
    Here is how the terms were explained to "us" (Lucaylucay Kali):
    Abecedarios/Abcdarios = Literally A,B,C's... block, check and strike/counter (as in angle is fed by opponent, you block,safety check, and show ONE counter)

    Seguidas: Followups... as in (and in Largo we were taught the same as above BTW) ... opp feeds angle, you block, counter, and show "series" of strikes... e.g. fig 8 up/down/thrust series, etc. Guro can rearrange these at will for practice... but there is usually a pre-set "form" for the testing of students and practice.

    Hope that helped... and if not, well, at least I contributed to the confusion.
    God bless.
    -wb
    BTW-- one of the "seguidas" that Minoy Lacoste used (I am told) was to literally do the alphabet after/during/or AS his counter -- angle from opp, you block/counter then "write" the letter A as a followup...Manong sometimes referred to THIS as an "abecedario"...there is def some "open" translation for the language.)
    Train...ask...and train some more.
     
  10. Dagadiablo

    Dagadiablo New Member

    1. both inosanto and lacoste were influenced by pekiti tirsia.

    Yes, wrong. But we appreciate the attempt--you mean LAMECO was somewhat influenced by PTK. Lacoste system is on a leaugue of it's own...
     
  11. FMATalker

    FMATalker New Member

    Hello,

    Does anyone know of any other prominent students of Manong Lacoste? I know of Guro Dan, and the Dogbrothers cite him as an influence (via Guro Dan).
     
  12. Epa

    Epa Member

    I've asked Guro Dan about other students of Lacoste who taught his style and he mentioned that Rex Parker (the former police chief of Stockton) was his senior under Manong Lacoste. I believe Mr. Parker died quite awhile ago.

    The other name I've seen in reference to Manong Lacoste is Al Concepcion (spelling may be wrong). From what I can gather he trained with a lot of the masters in Stockton the way Guro Dan did, but it's hard to find information on him.

    I'm sure there were others because Manong Lacoste trained people in small groups up until his death. The only people that would know for sure now would be the people who trained in those groups. It seems that the only person not teaching on private scale would be Guro Dan and he blends it so much it's hard to isolate what came from Manong Lacoste. Hope this helps.
     
  13. FMATalker

    FMATalker New Member

    Hello Epa,

    Thanks for the info. I guess there wouldn't be any documentation, whether written (e.g., manual/book) or video footage of the techniques and training methodology of Lacoste Kali (although I know there is that video footage of Manong Lacoste training in the park, and stuff written by Guro Dan).
     
  14. Epa

    Epa Member

    The sources you listed are the only ones I'm aware of. The closest thing to documentation would be Guro Dan's notes and the footage he had. I think he has quite a bit more footage of Manong Lacoste than what appeared on the Grandfathers speak and he's mentioned that his wife is trying to transfer all of his old video on to DVD. Hopefully, they will release it someday.

    I think he's also got pretty substantial notes and he used to teach the systems in a more separated manner. When I trained with one of his students from the old Kali Academy we just worked on Lacoste system and there was a much clearer separation in the material. If you can find one of Guro Dan's students from the 70s, you would probably be able to get closer to just Lacoste system. Some of them actually got to train with Manong Lacoste before he died. If you find out anything else please share it.
     
  15. equilibrium

    equilibrium New Member

    Lacoste - Lameco

    Yep, showing my ignorance of other FMA again, you are correct.

    (I said something incorrect mixing up Lacoste and Lameco. Lameco WAS influenced by GT Gaje and not Lacoste- I had posted in error that Lacoste was influenced by GT Gaje)
     
  16. Macthesword

    Macthesword New Member

    Abecedario VS Seiguidas

    My understanding is that the Abecedarios is (as stated previously, your ABCs) and is where one side feeds. There are various specific drills according to the way Guru Inosanto teaches them. Please don't hold me to any of this but that is my understanding. By assumption is that he has out them to specific drills for teaching and learning purposes?

    I do know that Seguida means literally "series of follows" and that is exactly how it is used and defined according to what Guru Inosanto teaches. So, it does not refer to anything specific. But, like Abecedario (6 ct, 8 ct etc) he has specific ones that he uses and teaches.

    I guess it is all kind of like learning some words then your teacher puts them into specific sentences for you to learn and use the words and calls those sentences specifically by name/number? Does that make sense? I am pretty sure I am correct in all that but, that very well may be just one aspect of it all. Hope that helps? Cheers,
    Chris Dunnett
     
  17. NubreedKaliSilat

    NubreedKaliSilat New Member

    The abcedario is the numbering system that most martial art systems use to train angles of attack. They practice counters and follow ups for each angle so that the student gains experience in dealing with angles instead of techniques. There are many ways to use the abcedario this example is #1

    Seguidas that I will cover here are the Seguidas found in Pekiti Tirsia Kali. They are follows ups to angle strikes. These Seguidas where developed for close quarters. Example: if you was standing in a narrow hall way and could not swing your stick in wide. They are compact and delivered with speed and body torque.


    Pekiti Tirsia Single Stick Seguidas
    1. backhand jab to vertical downward strike to toe smash-upward strike to chin pull back and backhand jab

    2. backhand jab to vertical downward strike to toe smash-upward strike to chin left hand parry inward to downward strike to backhand jab

    3. backhand jab to vertical downward strike to toe smash-upward strike to chin angle back to umbrella defense to horizontal strike, lead leg cross step back, to two backhand jabs

    4. backhand jab to vertical downward strike to toe smash-upward strike to chin to backhand jab deliever two lobtiks downward

    In this set there are all together 12 seguidas


    Lameco Escrima System
    Here we find the applications of Seguidas as to follow the force, here you use the abcedario and with each angle you counter with either follow the force or meet the force.
    La Seguida 's
    (follow the force to destroy any strike with a complemetary strike i.e. forehand vs. backhand or backhand vs. forehand

    1. La Seguida y witik
    Follow the force followed by a forehand or backhand witik

    2. La Seguida y Redondo
    Follow the force followed by a forehand or backhand redondo (power slash)

    3. La Seguida y Ikis
    Follow the force by; a backhand diagonal slash and a forehand diagonal slash
    Follow the force by; a forehand diagonal slash and a backhand diagonal slash
    (downward X)

    4. La Seguida Crossada
    Follow the force by; a vertical backhand redondo, a backhand horizontal slash, a forehand horizontal slash and another vertical backhand redondo
    Follow the force by; a vertical forehand redondo, a forehand horizontal slash, a backhand redondo slash and another vertical forehand redondo (full cross)

    Contradas to meet the force

    La contra: "meet the force" to destroy any strike with an opposing strike i.e. forehand vs. forehand, backhand vs. backhand

    1. La contra y witik
    a. meet the force followed by a forehand or backhand witik

    2. La contra y Redondo
    a. meet the force followed by a forehand or backhand redondo (power slash)

    3. La contra y Ikis (downward X)
    a. backhand diagonal slash and a forehand diagonal slash
    b. forehand diagonal slash and a backhand diagonal slash

    4. La contra y Kilat
    a. backhand witik, backhand diagonal slash and a forehand diagonal slash
    b. Forehand diagonal slash, backhand witik, and a backhand diagonal slash

    I hope that these helps to clear up the applications!
     

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