How Was PTK Selected to Teach the Police and RP Spec. Forces?

Discussion in 'Pekiti-Tirsia Kali' started by khd29, Mar 17, 2007.

  1. Chris Wiggins

    Chris Wiggins New Member

    I'm still wondering which unnamed "system" out there is better?
     
  2. langgaw

    langgaw New Member

    ... we can all just wonder. No one really knows yet. But when it comes , we will all jsut say ..."oh, that ..." this is where a little humility helps ones self and it goes a long, long way.
     
  3. puntadas

    puntadas New Member

    I'm still wondering & we can all just wonder...
    you guys figured it all out =
    'the great mystery'
    way to go!
     
  4. gold_chapter

    gold_chapter Balintawak Eskrima

  5. gold_chapter

    gold_chapter Balintawak Eskrima

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Kailat

    Kailat KAILAT KOMBATIVES GROUP

    Hello, I was browsing through much of this thread. And its very long up to 9pages. I only went through bits and parts of it, but the premise of this thread is the understanding of how GT Leo T. Gaje JR. and his PT was chosen to teach the Philippine Force Recon Marines. I believe Maginoo Waid summed that up pretty explainatory.

    However, upon the first page of this thread a poster 408kali asked the question: " I love to hear that there are FMAers teaching military, police, or swat.

    I would love to have the opportunity to do that someday.."

    This is a good question. And I have to say I agree in those that say only a few individuals teaching Military and or LEO is by MA enthusiest. HOWEVER being in the Law Enforcement field as an officer in Indiana. I have the fortunate ability to teach CQC edged weapon and tactical baton to much of our dept. However, even though its only something I do on average of about 2 maybe 3 times a year.

    Here is the deal. NOT just anyone can run in off the street and say " hey i have (X) amount of training and or skill in the said field and why don't you put me to the test and I'd love to train your officers or military soldiers."

    This being said a smaller town or city dept you may get lucky with. But for most part it is standard that majority of Police Dept's send their own officers to the Academy to get certified as a Defensive Tactics inst. Once you have gained that confidence of your dept then you as the inst. can open the floor to many if anything you wish.

    Myself and one of my fellow officers switch off throughout the year teaching ground fighting and weapons retention, as well as my teachng tacticle edged awareness training.

    As for the Military again much of the same thing. THey look for those within. Even my past military prior service, and current LEO certs and martial arts training i've tried to get involved in local National Guard and Reserve units. Ive gotten many negative responses. So the glorification of being a tactics instuructor isn't that glamour driven. And I'll be honest from my own experience the worst group of individuals you as an insturctor want to teach as for IMMATURITY, and those that take training we in the FMA field can offer is the Police Officers. NOw im not saying "ALL" officers but man the majority i've taught they love to clown around, blow off much of the training. You have to get their attention quick and maintain it over all the training. Many of them are there because they get paid for it and are forced to be there and could care less. It's not like a Martial Arts group who PAY YOU, and WANT TO BE There to learn. So thats just alittle of the negative side of teaching Law Enforcement. Its not all what its cracked up to be. In fact I have not taught a DT class in about a year lately mainly because I really was upset at the behaviour of the guys at my last training. The small amount of pay that most of us in that field paid through our dept get just insn't worth the headaches and hassels to me. Just my.02 worth.
     
  7. Nico2270

    Nico2270 New Member

    Cory,

    I read your post and really feel your pain. I'm an LEO down in Indy and a former DT instructor. It is scary to have to sign off on some officers that don't seem to take it seriously. If they ever get in an altercation and misuse what they have learned; too much, or worse too little, then the first thing done is to see who trained them.

    On another note, there are some motivated officers out there that want to continue their training. I have really come to appreciate PTK. It has given me great tools to store away, and made me more blade aware. I wish more officers were open to this sort of training. It may be tiring, but I hope you find the officers on your department that want to be better than they are and continue to train them. Put on a free seminar. You know how cheap we can be. It might be just the hook needed! Stay safe.

    Nick
     
  8. trainer9731

    trainer9731 New Member

    Cory,

    I too feel your pain. As a Police Trainer in a large Dept for a number of years now I have had experiences similar to what you describe. The solution that I have come up with and that seems to work well for me is to offer optional training. In Mandatory training you will always have the element that you describe, however in optional training those same officers (or most of them at least) will have a much better mindset, and be ready to work and learn. The ones that are unreachable wont sign up thus not disrupting the ones who want to learn.
    With Optional training, I have had very successful training days. Plus you can do more in that format:
    Mandatory training in a large dept - to send everyone (hundreds or even thosands) through training will take months which is a huge drain on resources.
    In contrast, with optional training (since every officer doesnt have to go through it) you can offer 4 or 5 classes (12-20 students each) throughout the entire year which is very doable in most depts.

    Here is Another phenomia that I have observed, Sometimes an officer, say a Detective, will scoff at the training because he doesnt think that he will every be in a situation where he would have to use it, but then at a future time, say he's transfered back into a street asignment ( and/or he gets into a confrontation with a suspect) he will suddenly become interested in what you have to teach. Optional training is perfect for this because you dont want him in your class if he is not ready to learn ( he may even be disruptive and/or distracting) but when he is ready to learn, he can sign up for the optional class.

    anyways, just a suggestion - I know that every dept is structured different and hopefully it'll help you in your agency.

    P.S. it interesting speaking with Martial Artists who are not cops, They assume that all Police Officers will have the same entusiasm that they do for Self Defense. How shocked they would be if they were to watch just one mandatory inservice class...

    - Good Luck and keep trying! - They are worth it
     
  9. still lurking

    still lurking New Member

    a lot of cops can't even do 20 push ups.
     
  10. Kailat

    Kailat KAILAT KOMBATIVES GROUP

    TRAINER 9731 & NICCO;

    Gentlemen, thank you for both of your in depth responses to my post. It is touching to know that others have felt what i've went through. My dept. is exactly that of which you describe. There are a small handfull of officers who I've offerred optional training for. As well as we've had seminars and i've had a hand full of officers from our dept as well as surrounding dept's show up. It was for the most part very information for those. I agree with you in the field that many officers feel they have the upper hand, only to find out that not all situations are service weapon answerable.

    Working in L.E. I've realized that my specialized training "FMA" has really made my awareness for things so much more hightened.

    I have not taught a DT session in about a year only because the last class I taught really seemed to upset me with the way these guys acted. It only seems to happen when I teach my own group of officer's that i work with. but i've had nothing more then the upmost respect from other dept's that i've taught.

    But since i've just really enjoyed only teaching my small group of individuals that I have in our circle here in my hometown. I have no desire to run a large group, school, organization etc... Ive found great fun and excellent results in training in our group. But hey how did this get turned around to "ME"? LOL

    onto the purpose of this topic.

    thanks

    Cory
     
  11. All,

    The PNP had a "try out" last week in Manila at Camp Crame (Thursday I think). Local Grand-Masters from a variety of disciplines such as PTK, Lightning, Bahad Zubu, Akido, Krav Maga, Grappling etc, etc demonstrated their arts for a number of the top brass and Police Officers around Luzon.

    I think they wish to update their defense program and as an officer told me at the weekend "Cops keep shooting people with knives / bolos and getting bad PR".

    My view is that's better than being dead but that's beside the point.

    Maybe somebody who was there would like to relate how PTK compared with the other martial arts on display? Shame it wasn't captured on video really...

    ***Edit***

    I just spent some time reading through the whole 9 pages! of this thread and would like to answer an interesting question that was raised earlier.

    "Why would someone turn down the PNP?"


    A few reasons are time and money. If you're a local Grand-master who is teaching foreign students and going abroad to teach seminars you'd have to take a big pay cut to teach the PNP. Also the Philippines is a geographically diverse place and the logistics of going to all the provinces is a hardship too. Just something to think about...

    Whatever art is chosen I think it will be ten-times better than that afforded to the police officers of the U.K...
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2008
  12. Combative Edge

    Combative Edge New Member

    PNP selection is based on Authority/originality/track record

    I had check with MANDALA ROMMEL TORTAL in the Philippines regarding this issue about PNP Training.

    Here are the true facts
    :
    The Philippine National Police has the Philippine Public Safety College under the Presidency of Madame Tingting Cojuangco that managed the Philippine Natiomnal Police Academy(PNPA), The National Police College. The PPSC had 18 RTS- Regional Traiining Center ( 18 regions) all over the Philippines.

    Pekiti-Tirsia Program of Instruction is now an official curriculum of the PNPA and the Philippine Public Safety College. PNPA -4 years course , the PTK has 4 years curriculum from first year to 4th year.

    The Public Safety College for Non-Commissioned Officers : PTK program of Instruction is a major program

    The Philippine National Police program for regular police is managed by the (DHRDD).under the DHRDD is the Special Action Force Commandos, Crisis Response Group, Aviation Security Group, Intelligence Unit, Presidential Security Group,'Anti-tterrorism Intelligence Group and other special operations. PTK Edged Impact Weapon Tactical Control Dynamics is the official training program.

    To be accepted in the PNP, the system must be pure filipino system, must have track record in training the law enforcement and the military.
    PTK track record in the US Criminal Justice system and the Austrian Cobra Commandos, and the Philippine Marine Corps, Special Action force commandos are more than sufficient credentials. No FMA can equal the credentials of the PTK.
     
  13. Combative Edge

    Combative Edge New Member

    PNP selection is based on Authority/originality/track record

    I had check with MANDALA ROMMEL TORTAL in the Philippines regarding this issue about PNP Training.

    Here are the true facts
    :
    The Philippine National Police has the Philippine Public Safety College under the Presidency of Madame Tingting Cojuangco that managed the Philippine Natiomnal Police Academy(PNPA), The National Police College. The PPSC had 18 RTS- Regional Traiining Center ( 18 regions) all over the Philippines.

    Pekiti-Tirsia Program of Instruction is now an official curriculum of the PNPA and the Philippine Public Safety College. PNPA -4 years course , the PTK has 4 years curriculum from first year to 4th year.

    The Public Safety College for Non-Commissioned Officers : PTK program of Instruction is a major program

    The Philippine National Police program for regular police is managed by the (DHRDD).under the DHRDD is the Special Action Force Commandos, Crisis Response Group, Aviation Security Group, Intelligence Unit, Presidential Security Group,'Anti-tterrorism Intelligence Group and other special operations. PTK Edged Impact Weapon Tactical Control Dynamics is the official training program.

    To be accepted in the PNP, the system must be pure filipino system, must have track record in training the law enforcement and the military.
    PTK track record in the US Criminal Justice system and the Austrian Cobra Commandos, and the Philippine Marine Corps, Special Action force commandos are more than sufficient credentials. No FMA can equal the credentials of the PTK.
     
  14. The above harks back to the point I was making. Just because the art may be effective doesn't mean you have the resources and / or infrastucture to embark upon a governement training program.

    Did you ask how last week's demo went btw?
     
  15. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise Senior Member Supporting Member

    So it sounds like there was an open try out to retain the government contracts. I imagine this is pretty standard. It will be interesting to see the results. [​IMG]
     
  16. Banakun

    Banakun New Member

    I agree with eskrimakaliarnis... I'm an LSAI guy myself and our particular LSAI group just does not have the capability to teach the art on a mass-base basis. We just don't have the experience and the program for it. In this respect, PTK has the most experience I believe...it has the structure, the methodology, etc... and again, this does not automatically mean the others are "inferior."

    And true, not everyone would want to train Military or Police for various personal reasons... mostly similar to the reasons why Financing companies hesitate on extending credit to them (Police or Military)... which is just too bad since there are really some honorable Police and Military people out there who just get lumped with the rotten apples...
     
  17. PeteNerd

    PeteNerd Member


    Were you at this event?

    Pete
     
  18. No. It came up quite suddenly else I'd tried to blag an invite.
     
  19. Ron Kosakowski

    Ron Kosakowski New Member

    Experienced...

    I hate going into this but I want to throw in my opinion here. I have been to the Philippines every year since 2002 and in spending up to a month each time, I have been all over the place and met many people traveling around the Philippines with Mr. Gaje. Within the NBI, the SAF, the PNP and the CRG. Over those years, I happened to meet a lot of Generals and other higher-ups in rank. Basically, they all said the same thing. They were sick and tired of the old Judo, Aikido and karate fighting methods they were teaching their people and watching them get killed using it. They all researched many styles and desided to choose PTK for their police and/or military personell. I can see where a lot of people feel suspicious of some sort of propaganda going on with some fast talking. Its not...if i did not hear it from the mouths of these higher-ups in rank myself, I probably would have thought the same thing. (another one to add to the Leo Gaje rumors section of the forum)

    War has evolved. Terrorism is vast there, and every where elde in the world these days. It is more up close and personal today. Hand to hand is used much more than it was from the Korean war on up. It is sneaky and we do not know who the enemy is. So the blade now comes into play that much more than guns will, unless it is a gun fight.

    I had to say all this because all of us in PTK are proud of that the military and the police are using PTK all over the Philippines...the mother-land of FMA's. Name dropping is ok for those of us who need to pay the bills. And if we choose to only be a martial art instructor only...running a martial art school, we need to use whatever it takes to pay those bills. The military in the Philippines and wherever else Mr. Gaje and even myself has taught for LE or military is used to attract attention. And it does! If a celeb was in your style (not mentioning names here at all so be cool) and you use it, well, its for the same reason I assume. Krav Maga uses Jen Lopez and what ever other celeb in that style. Now to me, thats not exactly a style I would get involved in. But look where name dropping got that style! Look what it did for JKD. Thats fine and use it to promote. Nothing wrong with that! We are proud of our style. I have seen people proud of the style they put hard work in even if they are just breaking boards and/or doing katas. Every time I hop on this forum, I see people getting down on the guys who are proud of our style. I just don't get it![​IMG]
     
  20. Ron Kosakowski

    Ron Kosakowski New Member

    Experienced...

    I hate going into this but I want to throw in my opinion here. I have been to the Philippines every year since 2002 and in spending up to a month each time, I have been all over the place and met many people traveling around the Philippines with Mr. Gaje. Within the NBI, the SAF, the PNP and the CRG. Over those years, I happened to meet a lot of Generals and other higher-ups in rank. Basically, they all said the same thing. They were sick and tired of the old Judo, Aikido and karate fighting methods they were teaching their people and watching them get killed using it. They all researched many styles and desided to choose PTK for their police and/or military personell. I can see where a lot of people feel suspicious of some sort of propaganda going on with some fast talking. Its not...if i did not hear it from the mouths of these higher-ups in rank myself, I probably would have thought the same thing. (another one to add to the Leo Gaje rumors section of the forum)

    War has evolved. Terrorism is vast there, and every where elde in the world these days. It is more up close and personal today. Hand to hand is used much more than it was from the Korean war on up. It is sneaky and we do not know who the enemy is. So the blade now comes into play that much more than guns will, unless it is a gun fight.

    I had to say all this because all of us in PTK are proud of that the military and the police are using PTK all over the Philippines...the mother-land of FMA's. Name dropping is ok for those of us who need to pay the bills. And if we choose to only be a martial art instructor only...running a martial art school, we need to use whatever it takes to pay those bills. The military in the Philippines and wherever else Mr. Gaje and even myself has taught for LE or military is used to attract attention. And it does! If a celeb was in your style (not mentioning names here at all so be cool) and you use it, well, its for the same reason I assume. Krav Maga uses Jen Lopez and what ever other celeb in that style. Now to me, thats not exactly a style I would get involved in. But look where name dropping got that style! Look what it did for JKD. Thats fine and use it to promote. Nothing wrong with that! We are proud of our style. I have seen people proud of the style they put hard work in even if they are just breaking boards and/or doing katas. Every time I hop on this forum, I see people getting down on the guys who are proud of our style. I just don't get it![​IMG]
     

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