How Was PTK Selected to Teach the Police and RP Spec. Forces?

Discussion in 'Pekiti-Tirsia Kali' started by khd29, Mar 17, 2007.

  1. tanod

    tanod New Member

    ptk was selected because the commanding officer noticed that when it comes to blade the marines were ignorant. so he set out and searched for a bladed weapon art, and the commanding officer's friend suggested filipino martial arts namely PTK.
     
  2. Gilla

    Gilla -== Banned ==-

    I don't know maybe we should all sit down and have a green tea low fat Chai latte and share a blueberry scone and talk this out. After all we all the same under the skin.
    Eddie
     
  3. PeteNerd

    PeteNerd Member

    I'll have mine with soy, thanks,

    Pete
     
  4. Gilla

    Gilla -== Banned ==-

    Pete,
    whats up?
    Eddie
     
  5. Matt Lim

    Matt Lim New Member

    That sums it up.
     
  6. truth_be_told

    truth_be_told -== Banned ==-

    Mr. Tim,
    U haven't show an[FONT=verdana,geneva,lucida,'lucida grande',arial,helvetica,sans-serif]y[/FONT] evidence of PTK is Superior/Beats
    i) US Marine Corps Martial Art Program (MCMAP),
    ii) SCARS method of US Navy SEALS,
    iii) the LINE method of US Army Special Forces,
    iv) current US Army Combatives program.
    v) Australian SAS
    vi) Australian Federal Air Marshals

    U based your evidence for Australian SAS on :-
    i) the PAST - during the mid-nineties time frame ??? exactly when ?

    ii) u make conjecture and generalized statement that "The SAS used what was clearly a Japanese/Okinawan based Karate style for combatives instruction" How sure are you ?

    iii) Based on one cadre ??
    iv) in a joint training which is nothing more than a simulation drill ?

    As for the Australian Federal Air Marshals :-
    1) u based it on ONE Australian Cadre who "lacked tactics to deal with a dynamic edged weapon attack at extreme close-quarters ..., the training cadre recognized the skills taught through PTK"

    Is'nt this a Generalized and Over-conjecture statement that PTK is better than those ?

    What if i beat one PTK practitioner say in a stick competition ?
    Can i say my system is Superior/Beats PTK or the PTK practitioner lacks tactics ?
    OR perhaps i should join any FMA festivities to participate in any joint training and
    if PTK folks dun do well here, can they all say they bested PTK ?

    Also, you like to bold and highlight the past "WWII in the Philippines saw the most prolific (more than any other theatre of the war) and effective use of the short Sword/Bolo. The Bolo was used by guerrilla units (throughout the entire islands), regular infantry (First and Second Filipino Regiments) and special operations (AIB Reconnaissance/Communications units and others)."

    BUT that WWII effective use of the short Sword/Bolo DOES NOT employ pekiti tirsia as their delivery system.
    Back then those folks were Not taught PTK so how can PTK take credit for that ??

    Folks from Bahala Na or Leo Giron camp or those whose living teachers had employed FMA in WWII can testify that it is Not PTK that sees the effective use of the short sword/bolo during WWII.
    WHERE WAS PTK then ? Absorbing those FMAs that had proven itself during WWII ? LOL


    IMHO, the above so called "Pekiti-Tirsia Military/LE programs and history" smacks of nothing more than pure Marketing & Advertising commentary with all this "Branding by association" and "Name droppings" of Military/LE bodies.
     
  7. RayFloro

    RayFloro New Member

    I ABSOLUTELY AGREE with Truth Be Told,

    Tim,

    I am currently the "Subject Matter Expert" (Edged Weapons) for the Australian Defence Force. In this role, I work in close association with the members of the Australian MUC Cell in developing a program for the Military.

    As such, I have close friendship with members from all branches of the Aussie Military. This includes the Australian SASR and Australian Air Marshalls.

    If you would be so kind to supply me with the names and contact details of those SF members that you liaised with, I can easily validate your story.

    If you wish to validate my credentials. I am more than happy to email you my Resume which details all programs I am involved in, complete with contact details and emails of those in authority to confirm my accomplishments.

    I am also a Kalis Ilustrisimo Instructor. Accredited directly by GM "Tatang" Ilustrisimo and GM Tony Diego. I trained with both of them directly, and one on one for many years.

    For you to "quote" what Tatang or GM Diego "might" say is irresponsible and reckless. Especially since you only "met" them once.


    As for your "opinions" of the Sayoc and Atienza group.

    I have been fortunate enough to be able to spend time to train, spar, and break bread with most of their members.

    ALL of them are highly skilled, generous, open minded and most of all OF GREAT CHARACTER.

    They are true warriors in their art, and their INNOVATIVE APPROACH to their teaching, structure and analysis of the Filipino Warrior Art is what makes them LEADERS IN THEIR FIELD.

    THE MOST Elite fighting units of the world TRUST THEIR LIVES with Sayoc and Atienza. THAT is testimony in itself.

    If you doubt that, then try to get a CONTRACT with these same groups.

    As I have found with the Australian Military, they are very careful, and protected to choose only the best.

    So please provide us a list of your "Contracted" military work in the Western World.

    Raymond Floro
    Floro Fighting Systems
    www.florofighting.com
     
  8. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I don't think we need to be exchanging lists. Many arts have something to offer the military, but only so many will be selected.
     
  9. lmanalo

    lmanalo New Member

    Greetings Steve,
    I don't know if we ever met. I started my FMA with Mike Berkeley but wasn't there during 94. I have had the please of meeting with Agapito recently during an AK/Sayoc seminar. Agapito also trains one of my own students (who is currently out of the country).
    I still go to Tom Bisio for accupuncture & Eastern medicine work!

    I hope your training is going well and hope that we are able to meet one day:)

    Greetings Ray F.!
    How's it going?!? we always hear great things when your name is mentioned here in the States. the Atienza brothers send you their well wishes. we hope to train all together soon.


    Respectfully,
    Leo M.
    Atienza Kali
     
  10. Gilla

    Gilla -== Banned ==-

    O.K. Mr. Floro its seems like a case of the pot calling the kettle black both your site and the Sayoc site use name dropping everyone from navy seal's to Tommy Lee Jones have blurbs on on the sayoc site and you also use photo 's of the korean SF and others on your's. Maginoo Tim Waid just tried to answer some questions on the reasons why PTK was selected by the Philipino Marines and he did so quite well I thought. Also the fact that your homeland trust's PTK to keep it's armed forces safe should be a good enough endorsement for anyone. Maybe it's just pinute envy. Now for Mr. Truth whats wrong? Did we run over your dog or steal some money from you , You seem very upset . Take a hot shower and drink a beer and you will feel much better. ( maybe a yoga class) But stop calling us we are just not interested.
    Eddie
     
  11. Sun_Helmet

    Sun_Helmet Junior Member


    Thanks for the reply Tim.

    We've found that closing with a knife is dependent on scenario, individual experience and the unit's prior training. Many at the higher levels have been around the block, and are familiar with FMA, know about distancing and many other arts. They have seen what a knife can do and have used a knife before. Even their room clearing tactics differ and have evolved due to their real life experiences. Often at a rapid pace to adapt to the everchanging threats around them.

    However, when we speak of evolution it also applies to this:

    The Sayoc Tactical Group works to complement their training so that it fits seamlessly with the muscle memory they have acquired with their own tactics. That alone requires a different type of approach. Many different types of training modules.

    Time and again, FMA instructors have found new ways to get their ideas across. To be able to communicate their tactics effectively. They have learned to counter anything that comes at them. It is result oriented.

    That is evolution.
    Evolution IS the FMA.

    We're not talking about evolution as just new ways to killshot the universal vital targets of the human body. Nor are we talking about re-inventing the wheel.

    Evolution is about finding every possible way to get the basic concepts ingrained into our students. We look at our students as part of one family, a united tribe part of the bigger tribe. Each one responds differently and has their own mind and intellect. Each one responds to a different methodology and personality.

    Evolution is not about reliving the past, but about preserving its ideals so that its inherent values lasts well into the future.

    The mere fact that we are exchanging posts ABOUT FMA in an FMA talk forum is evolution. :)

    ----
    As for Filipinos in WW2, my uncle was a decorated soldier who began as a guerilla fighter in Negros. In fact, they wrote an article and a book of his exploits in the Philippines titled "The Unsung Hero of Negros". He helped establish the recon tactics with the natives of that region. He also made sure the women were not raped, and their homes not pillaged by bandits. He was buried with full military honors in Arlington cemetary several years ago with the rank of Lt. Colonel. That said, although he respected the FMA greatly, he favored applying the cunning, will and tactics of the Filipino warrior to acquire firearms to help defeat the modern weapons of the enemy of that time. When the men all showed up with blades in hand, he said that they needed to use those blades to get more guns. And that they did.

    ---

    All in all, it is good to finally make some form of contact with you Tim.
    To get beyond the surface and eventually flesh out matters which can simply be a matter of semantics and miscommunication.

    Much success to you and PTK.

    --Rafael--
    Sayoc Kali
     
  12. Sun_Helmet

    Sun_Helmet Junior Member

    The Navy SEAL on the blurb is an individual SAYOC instructor who also happens to be a retired SEAL.

    This does not pertain to the premise that Mr. Waid was pointing out, which was that some instructors train individuals, and some have approved contracts. The above case is of an individual who happens to be a SEAL.
    One of many who are Sayoc instructors.

    Tommy Lee Jones is on our site because he's TOMMY LEE JONES! :D

    It is very commendable that the Philippine Recon Marines are training in PTK.

    Every achievement is worth "name dropping".

    --Rafael--
    Sayoc Kali
     
  13. Matt Lim

    Matt Lim New Member

    How Was PTK Sellected to Teach the Police and RP Spec. Forces?
    Very few FMA group in RP would want to be associated with the Philippine military and police organization.

    Why would the police and specops want to learn blade use?
    Seems they're getting tired of using nylon, nails, and cement on their civilian opponents.
     
  14. truth_be_told

    truth_be_told -== Banned ==-

    PTK selection with merit ?

    Mr GILLA eddie hunt & Mr Tim,

    'Also the fact that your homeland trust's PTK to keep it's armed forces safe should be a good enough endorsement for anyone. Maybe it's just pinute envy.'

    for whatever reasons PTK was selected had nothing to do with WWII prowess or whatsoever, just plain networking contacts.

    i have no problem with PTK selection.

    PTK can be selected by its own merit. Why Mr. Tim have to put others down without Facts or merit to promote PTK ? just looks at the choice of words - Self promo and all that and of course you don't have to go far to look at Gaje's opinions.


    to run down other arts employ by other military/le bodies in the world show how much integrity PTK had.


    to make such sweeping statements and generalization, u best back it up with FACTS.

    else i might as well make up my own stories.

    Ray,

    You are truly an exemplary leader and master instructor. Ray does not have to put down others to promote himself. Neither does he make sweeping generalized statements.


    fully support mr. ray floro who is open to share facts with anyone who ask.
    unlike u and mr. tim,

    Gilla/Tim have NO SUBSTANTIAL FACTs to back up your sweeping statement and running down of other arts.

    much success to PTK ? good luck
     
  15. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    Agapito is one of a kind! I just saw Tom yesterday. Hopefully we'll cross paths one of these days as I'm at his clinic from time to time. Best of luck for your continued martial arts success.

    Steve
     
  16. sneaky

    sneaky New Member

    Hi All,

    I think its best that all involved take a step back to reflect on what it is exactly that is being discussed here, no one is disputing PTKs training of the Filipino military or its effectiveness, I will go on the record here as I am sure Ray would that our only interest here is the comments Mr Waids scoring of points off the back of elite Australian forces whose operational record speaks for itself, I can appreciate Mr Waids points but dont happen to personally agree with the context in which they were presented, the knife is not an operational focus point for either of the units mentioned and why would it be? the firearm and munitions of today far outclass any blade there is and any system, ours , yours anyones, it just isnt a tool that the western world relies on for anything other than utility and PERHAPS sentry removal , the main interest of western forces is the defence against them .

    I know that there are numerous documented cases of blades being used offensively in recent times but would add that if you look at the modern soldiers primary weapon systems you wont see a bolo or balisong guys, I can understand that in the PIs there is a blade culture and hence the interest but doubt that there would be more than a handfull of blade kills being made by the SAF each year , context is always the key in these discussions and that is my 2 cents.

    All the best,

    Jim
     
  17. RayFloro

    RayFloro New Member

    Gilla,

    You again, have completely missed the point.

    Sayoc and FFS website is use to promote our own specific arts and we include the contents you mentioned because it is OUR own individual website.

    It is NOT a public forum.

    Also...where in my website have I spoken negatively, defamed or said FFS is better than any other system.

    EVERYTHING on my website can be proved. I can give you names, emails and contact numbers of any of Military, LEO or private organisation you wish to confirm my involvement with.

    As I said before, my PROFESSION is to assist in giving the best Edged Weapons program for the Australian Military.

    Of course when I hear someone say that their training is grossly lacking; I need to interview these individuals so that I can develop measures to improve their "lack of training".

    I have made initial inquiries with my contacts, and none have even heard of Tim Waid.

    So a little assitance in finding the right people will be appreciated before their lack of training really gets them killed.

    So my question still stands. Who Mr Waid did you train in the Australian Military?


    As for Sayoc using the movie "The Hunted" to promote themselves.

    Incorrect.........The movie producers used Sayoc to promote "The Hunted".

    Just get the DVD and go to the "Special Features"...you will find Sayoc there.


    Truth Be Told,

    Thank you for the kind comments. Your posts really cut to the crux of this matter.


    Leo,

    I do hope we meet one day.

    I have only great respect and admiration to all at the Atienza clan.

    Great people.
     
  18. khd29

    khd29 New Member

    WTF is going on here?

    I would like to learn from the Sayoc and Atienza group one day but for now, it's not near the budget. The ones I found charge almost as much as some BJJ academies except the instruction is limited to 2x/week. I was hoping it would be unlimited classes and I would like to know why it is so high. Even my judo dojo doesn't charge that much and that's a full-time dojo, it's the sensei's living.

    The Kruzada Kali tuition seemed to be more reasonable but they do not have their own space. Good group of guys, too. I found a PTK school in Park Slope and will check it out soon.
     
  19. Chris Wiggins

    Chris Wiggins New Member

    Well, as we say here in Indiana; "some folks ain't ever gonna be able to play banjo".
    That's what's going on here.
     
  20. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I got to go to a few Sayoc seminars in Bloomington, IN, but have only read about the Atienza group. I enjoyed the Sayoc material.
     

Share This Page