How many lineages are there?

Discussion in 'Balintawak' started by Bob Hubbard, Jan 8, 2006.

  1. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Darth Vindicatus Supporting Member

    I've seen a few names mentioned, but how does lineage work under Balintawak? Does everyone trace back to GM Bacon? The Balintawak st club? Or are there different branches that are completely independant of each other?
  2. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    Those Under neither GM Anciong Bacon that had a school or following of their own:

    Toto Moncal

    Timor Maranga

    Delfin Lopez

    Joe Villasin

    Ted Buot

    Others of notable that trained with GM Bacon as well.
    Bobby Tabamina
    Bobby Taboada
    Jo Go
    Remy Presas

    Moncal's lineage I believe is now the Moncal-Veeck out of Germany. Also called Modified in reference to what he taught GM Presas of Modern Arnis

    Maranga is now Tres Persona which is his based upon influence of three people on him where GM Bacon was only one.

    D. Lopez had few students, and believed the fewer who knew Balintawak the better for those who did practice.

    Joe Villasin which began the grouped method of teaching and has a very large group from his lineage.
    There are his boys in the PI, Pilo Vilez, Dom Lopez that went to Canada and there is Bobby Taboada here in the States. GM Bobby trained with Vilez and then later GM Villasin and with GM Bacon.

    Ted Buot who has a few students here in the states and a few that were in the PI, Including Arturo Sanchez that followed up with GM Bacon, but are not as well known.

    Tabamina was trained by Villasin and then trained with GM Bacon while he was in prison and before he died.

    Jo Go had Balintawak but also had and added in Kung Fu. Yet his students are out there and I have meet at least one who is a student of one his students.

    Remy Presas Who taught some people some basic Balintawak including Rocky Pawsik and some others. Remy used Balintawak and his family system as well as other learnings to make up his Art.

    So, in general those of Maranga and Go and Presas may and most likely have some students who learned some Balintawak, yet the system they the studnets learned most likely had other techniques and principles as well.

    The others have Balintawak, and may or may not have added in or changed things from GM Bacon over time.

    I have left one lineage out. Atillo. Ising Atillo currently states that is father taught Balintawak before GM Bacon and that he was the real Grand Master. I have no doubt from the pictures and stories told that the elder Atillo was around and knew Balintwak, and may have been a training partner with GM Bacon during his development of Balintawak. The story told has wholes in it and uses the term Balintawak even before GM Bacon opened his club up on Balintawak street. Before that it was all a part of the differnet systems andmasters of the Doces Pares and Labanon Fencing Club.

    No matter when Ising Atillo or his father learned Balintawak, or from whom it is recognized that what Atillo is teaching falls into the Balintawak family, Even though the eldar Atillo would train with both the Doces Pares and the club on Balintawak street.
  3. PeteNerd

    PeteNerd Member

    If you can't trace it back to Bacon then it isn't balintawak. A lot of people get hung up on lineages and tracing, but that's more of a japanese and chinese way of tracing martial arts. It's not very filipino. They aren't too concerned with rank or lineage, it's more about skill. Some people were checked and allowed to break off and start teaching, others just felt they were good enough and started teaching on their own. Basically if you couldn't stand on your own skill and teaching ability eventually someone would come around and knock you down a couple notches. There is differences in the method of instruction depending on who you talk to and some schools have added other techniques that aren't original balintawak as they were taught. When i trained my instructor would show me some additional techniques but would clearly tell me that he didn't learn it from Balintawak and where he picked it up. Some other people just kind of blend those things in without a disclaimer.

    From what I understand all these schools used to exist at the same time and then from time to time they would get together and "play" with each other and sort of check each others students in that way. I know when Teofilo Velez was alive they would get together on his birthday.

  4. bart

    bart New Member

    The Maranga family are now calling their family system Combate Eskrima Maranga (CEM). Previously they were known as Tres Personas, which referred to The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. I met Drigo Maranga and his son. This was the unsolicited explanation that they gave to me about the name of their system. They are a deeply religious family and it was in honor of the Christian Trinity that they named the system. It was not a reference to GM Bacon and any of Timor Maranga's teachers.
  5. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member


    I do not doubt you. I can see the information. I did and archive check and it goes back to Jan 18 2003 and it has Now called Combat Eskrima Maranga. Yet I was told by someone who had been in Europe and in the PI that it was the three people who influenced Maranga, and not spiritual.

    I believe your source much more, and will reference that in the future when necessary.

    Thank you
  6. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I've had it suggested to me that Balintawak is just another form of Doce Pares, and hence it all traces back there. (I don't agree with this statement, by the way--it's been modified too much from the Doce Pares base to be just another form of it.) I certainly agree that the focus on lineages matches a Japanese martial arts mindset better than a FMA mindset.
  7. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    I had a similiar discussion with my Friend Rob yesterday. The big difference is time, location, and circumstances.

    What do you mean by this rich? (* Had to feed myself that line so I could go int o lecture mode ;) *)

    Well thank you for asking. Given the early to mid 20th century training in Cebu. Given the Spanish influence and occupation including outlawing dueling in particular with blades. (* The Fillipino's then could not go out and work in the fields. *) People in the location and that time frame would settle issues of ego, reputation, and insults with a stick fight. (* Yes it could happen elsewhere in the PI as well. I am just speaking from the little area I have done research on. *) Also the circumstance of GM Bacon being the type of person to stab his opponent with his training dagger. This lead to the club insisting that he remove or not train with his dagger.

    This gave him a unique oppurtunity to optimize his technique based upon single stick and empty left hand. This allowed for him to optimize how he managed, monitored and delayed the opponents stick/weapon. Yes, one could do the same or similiar techniques with a dagger in your hand. Just not optimized the same way.

    Ok, Rich you keep mentioning this Optimization. What do you mean?

    Well there are three state I will discuss there are more, but these three cover what I am talking about. Your hand on the hand of the opponent. Your hand on your opponents stick, and your dagger on your opponents stick.

    With Dagger to stick you have inanimate object to inanimate object. The sensitivity of motion is the least of the three states. It is harder to listen to an inanimate object, and it is harder to listen or feel for that inanimate objects feedback from another inanimate object.

    With the Empty Hand on the opponents hand you have the maximum sensitivity between the two people, Both people know of the touch you both have the feedback of touch. Both "Listen" or feel the contact and their is reaction and many times it is instinctive. "don't touch me"

    With Empty Hand on the opponents stick, you have the best for the person with the empty hand to get the feedback for themselves, but the other person still has to listen or feel through an inanimate object.

    By optimizing the technique to listen or fell the opponents weapon you can learn to better manage, monitor and delay his weapon.

    This would not be the techniques you would apply on a blade. One would get cut.

    So, yes there will be similarities, but not exactly the same. For the techniques are designed with the attirbutes of the weapon and in this case the sitck.

    Yes, of course you can apply these same techniques by do the same on teh opponents arm versus stick when they have a blade. It is also possible to do it with a dagger in your hand. For in the Balintawak I study, we also learn how to listen to your own stick, to then know when tension is there or not.

    Some of the Balintawak families (* I prefer family versus lineage, but a family history is still a lineage, yet Family implies a relationship of cousins and such. :) *) they ahve added in knife and empty hand drills and technqiues as part of the curriculum, which as I have said numerous times, should be given credit to those who have done so. For you see they have not done so to be evil or take away, but to offer silutions to questions that people ask.

    Sorry about the ramble. Just my thoughts and input on this subject.
  8. Rocky

    Rocky New Member

    Balintawaks liniage, continues to grow

    Moncol and Temors Balintawak have both been split and changed numerous times. THe Balintawak I learned originallly from Professor Presas was Moncols Balintawak, it was ungrouped and even less structured then GM Buots, its roots were more from the Early Days of GM Bacons teaching. When Moncol taught Professor Presas he concentrated heavily on the block and lock training when he did mid range fighting it was more of GM Marangas early stuff. BOth of these GM's that taught Professor later changed and redeveloped their stuff as they went along which is why Remy's Balintawak looked so much different then what is being practiced by many today from these to liniages. Before Modern Arnis and even after when Professor trained for more of a combat situation he did his own method of Balintawak, it was completely free flowing no sinwallis or drills or groupings on any sort, lots of Block and lock and plenty of clipping, Tapping and jamming.

  9. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I like this breakdown of the possibilities! Indeed, you do have sensititivty with the dagger in your hand, but it isn't nearly the same as having your own empty hand touching the opponent. It's a reassuring feeling to be monitoring that weapon arm with your empty hand, even though having a knife is obviously better.
  10. Rocky

    Rocky New Member

    The funny thing about the Saavedra'a taking the dagger away from GM Bacon is that 30 years later one of GM Bacons students would inadvertantly reverse engineer the dagger back into Balintawak.

    If you ever had the pleasure of really working Espada Y Daga with Professor Presas you should have noticed that he preferred close range, and he did not do a lot of slashing or sinwalli type movements ala Pekiti. he used the dagger as more of a checking, poking and monitoring devise similuar ro Original Balintawak Ala GM Bacon/Buot uses their empty hand. So I would venture to say the GM Presas' Combat Espada y was probably simular to what GM Saavedra first tought GM Bacon. Kind of like the Circle coming complete!

  11. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    This was definitely my experience with the Professor--he used that dagger to check, monitor, and occasionally to poke when he had a stick in his other hand. I hadn't really thought of it as Balintawak-like because I viewed it in terms of his dagger-only techniques, which were more broadly based. It's an interesting point of view!

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