How generic is the term 'Sinko Tiros/Senkotiros'?

Discussion in 'General' started by arnisador, Sep 9, 2008.

  1. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I hear this term used for the specific art of Mr. Pallen but also to describe a very wide array of traditional FMAs from which other systems have grown. Often when someone from the Phil. uses the term I assume he means to use it in almost the same way as we might use a generic 'arnis' or 'eskrima'. How widespread are arts that use this name? Do they have much in common other than five basic angles?
     
  2. Brock

    Brock Asha'man

    Senkotiros itself is specific to GM Pallen. Other than being based off of 5 angles, there isn't much similarity. The few other Cinco Tiros systems I've seen are primarily Largo mano, but Senkotiros doesn't really deal with Largo in that if you're that far away, you're not really in danger of being hit. The 5 angles that we use are also different from what the other styles I've seen use.
     
  3. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    This is probably the most common spelling I've seen, and it sounds as though those are different systems!
     
  4. tim_stl

    tim_stl Junior Member

    why? in range is in range, isn't it?


    tim
     
  5. Brock

    Brock Asha'man

    At that range they have to hit your arm or hand, and even then you have to put it out there to be hit. If you don't engage at that range they can't hit you they need to move into a closer range to hit your body.

    Arnisador- that's the most common version of the name that I've seen and they're nothing like Senkotiros. Sinko Teros I've never seen. There may be a slight relation as it seems that it also comes from Luzon, but it may be as if they are distant cousins that only share a similar name.
     
  6. tim_stl

    tim_stl Junior Member

    i used to think that largo mano was as simple as hitting people on the hand or arm, but it's hard to base a whole system around that. in the cinco teros that i study (from laguna, originally from pampanga), we learn ways of engaging at that range, and i've never had a problem finding a fight in that range. it's hard to describe, but when i hear that there's no fight in largo if you don't stick your hand out, it's like hearing that there's no stickfight in corto because i'll just wrestle you.



    tim
     
  7. Maharlika510

    Maharlika510 New Member

    Hi guys, first time poster here, but long time student of the Pallen family.

    In terms of the name Senkotiros, it differs from the other "Cino Teros" in the teachings, concepts, and methodologies. Senkotiros goes far beyond the primary 5 angles of attack, in that there is a very high degree of sensitivity training and practical response. Additionally, Senkotiros is primarily a close range style.

    With regards to the largo mano issue being discussed by Brock and Tim, yes, Senkotiros does train Largo Mano, along with Medio and Corto. In fact, when GM Pallen first taught me my first lesson in encircling an opponent, he taught me Largo as the initial training step. If we did not address largo mano, our Senkotiros system would not be as complete, hahaha!

    Please note however, that our system focuses a lot on close range self-defense. The theory is that in a self-defense situation, say in an urban setting, one has the potential to diffuse the situation if two people are standing relatively far away (modified example of largo mano). At the medio range, one still has a choice to walk away or fight. However, at close range (corto), the threat level is much higher, thus our emphasis on close range training.

    Tim, I hope I have provided some insight to your issue that you and Brock were talking about. A good eskrimador can engage an opponent at any range, especially largo. The Bahala Na guys in Stockton are a good example of that.

    Going back to "Senkotiros" itself and "Cinco Teros," our system teaches students to realize the stick or knife as a training tool to develop good unarmed self-defense and proficient hands.

    Again, I hope I've helped to illuminate some questions. Take care guys.
     
  8. USKS1

    USKS1 Maharlika

    Joe,
    Now that is a good description.... I tried to say something like this in another post, but you did it better..

    We do work the largo and the circling "Tayada" footwork and getting in and out of range, but as Joe said more time is spent in Corto & Medio.

    Tim,
    I hear ya... If you have good footwork and timing you get in and get that shot in Largo, and it opens up the medio and corto pretty quick.

    Remember ranges change in a heartbeat.. A good fighter will be in Largo going for the hand & be inside nailing you with abanikos in the blink of an eye.. Any complete system has to address all ranges, but some specialize more in a certain range than another.

    Think about empty hand fighting also.. Things go from a long range kick to mid range punching to headbutts knees & elbows in the blink of an eye.

    We gotta train it all so we can deal with it.. Only then can we begin to specialize.

    Good posts!!
     
  9. Brock

    Brock Asha'man

    This is what I was trying to get at. For some reason my brain wouldn't let me come up with that explaination. Thanks!
     
  10. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I was in a similar situation. We had a handful of largo techniques but I had no largo strategy beyond what you mention and some feints (which I am poor at). Mr. Agbulos of Lameco helped open my eyes!
     
  11. bmcoomes

    bmcoomes Manaois' Systems

    I have no knowledge of GM Pallen's Sinkotiros I am part of a Cinco Teros system Ninoy's Cinco Teros (NCT) to be exact from the Manaois family. From what I have seen of GM Pallen's material on Youtube (good stuff by the way) it is really nothing like NCT. From my limited understanding it's a system that was used for the tribe, meaning limited material but vary flexible in application. So there would be less training time in teaching material and more time getting combative. I hope that helps toward the discussion.

    Thanks,
     
  12. tim_stl

    tim_stl Junior Member

    what are the five angles that you've learned? for the garimot cinco teros, we teach them to beginners in this order:


    1. buhat araw (downward forehand)
    2. aldabis (upward backhand)
    3. saboy (upward forehand)
    4. bartikal (downward backhand)
    5. sak-sak (forehand thrust)



    tim
     
  13. bmcoomes

    bmcoomes Manaois' Systems

    Tim,
    Those are the same angles we learn, but then we apply a five count to the angel. So for angle one "buhat araw", you would strike downward forehand, upward backhand, thrust downward forehand to strike downward forehand (doblete), Thrust upward backhand. I hope that makes sense.

    Here an old youtube video I did of the basic angles for MSI (Manaois Systems International) at 0:15 starts the NCT strikes I was talking about above. The pattern is out of order in regards to angles of attack but will help with understanding what I was talking about.

    Thanks,
     
  14. tim_stl

    tim_stl Junior Member

    thanks for the video. your description matched the video well.

    (btw- that question about the angles was for all readers. i'm interested in commonalities, especially if there is a reason the angles are what they are.)

    looking at your other videos, garimot cinco teros also uses the equis footwork pattern, although one more is added to it (we call it 'handa') to make it five.



    tim
     
  15. Brock

    Brock Asha'man

    GM Pallen's Senkotiros

    1. Horizontal
    2. Diagonal Down
    3. Diagonal Up
    4. Thrusting
    5. Twisting

    Whether it's a forehand or backhand strike doesn't matter. i.e. both the forehand and backhand horizontal strike are #1 strikes. An example of a #5 would be an Abaniko strike.
     
  16. bmcoomes

    bmcoomes Manaois' Systems

    Tim,
    kewl, I thought I add to it with what I have. As far as the Equis we count the steps and so there is five steps, we use the centered position as far as counting goes.

    Brock,
    that makes sense in that it's more classifications of striking than angles of attack.

    Thanks,
     
  17. Brock

    Brock Asha'man

    The level of the strike doesn't matter either. A horizontal aimed at the temple or at the knee are still #1's. I like the simplicity of it.
     
  18. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise Senior Member Supporting Member

    Cool Brock that is nice information! [​IMG]
     
  19. tim_stl

    tim_stl Junior Member

    then i think our footwork basics are the same, except our centered position has the feet shoulder width, instead of close. i even see familiarity in the striking patterns. it's good to see some more cinco teros that is similar to what i know.



    tim
     
  20. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    It's much the same in Modern Arnis, and I agree!
     

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