has fma ever been in competitions agains other arts and won?

Discussion in 'General' started by Pinuti, Sep 10, 2014.

  1. Pinuti

    Pinuti New Member

    I"ve noticed that martial arts like silat, muay thai, kung fu, karate, judo etc has at some point been used in a fight whether it be competition or what not against other arts and had some success. My question is where does FMA fit in being successful against other arts. Becuase its seems to be the only famous art that hasn't really proven itself against other arts in fighting in competitoins such as vale tudo, mma, fencing or any other martial art such as muay thai etc. i feel that fma has become quite the mcdojo
  2. blindside

    blindside student

    I don't find it surprising that weapon specialist arts with all the assumptions that go into such an art, don't do well against unarmed specialists in their specialty. Does that really surprise you? I watched an amateur MMA fighter at Dog Brothers last year who said he had about a month of weapon training, lots of enthusiasm but clearly not ready for a weapon environment. It doesn't make MMA bad, just that it is a range that he hadn't trained. I am all for adding competitiveness to the training floor and will certainly critique those instructors who get stuck into using overly compliant partners to show their art, if you are a fighting art you need to fight.

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  3. Pinuti

    Pinuti New Member

    I"m reffering to empty hands, not the weapons aspect. A martial art that assumes you always have a weapon is like a fencer assuming he will always have a sword on him.
  4. jspeedy

    jspeedy Member

    To the OP i'd keep in mind that the term FMA encompasses hundreds of separate systems with very different approaches, and there's been a lot of testing between these systems over the history of the Filipino arts.

    As FMA increases in popularity there will be more people practicing the art and thus more opportunity for less dedicated people to become involved. One of the only ways to preserve the legitimacy of an art is by offering a measureable ruleset for competition. Fencing, Muay Thai, BJJ, Judo are all popular because of the sportive components of these arts. In my opinion these arts are some of the best because as sports, they have preserved their combative nature through competition. Competition allows practitioners to reach the highest levels of an art due to the alive/resisting nature of sports. Without a measureable form of success you are dealing in the realm of speculation.

    Techniques unsafe for competition (of which FMA has many) are speculative. You will never truly have experience applying a "deadly" technique until you gouge out an eye or stomp a knee, or whatever. The realm of speculation opens up the door for mediocrity because you have groups of people training and teaching techniques they have never truly applied. You have instructors showing moves that they have never applied and teaching student how to fight although they've never fought themselves.

    As blindside mentioned above most FMA specializes in weapons so it seems counter intuitive to think that a weapons based art would excel in a specialized ruleset. There are empty hand FMAs out there and it's up to them to take their art to the ring if they so desire. But it seems the majority of FMA is weapons based. Yes, you can take out the weapons and translate some technique, but the other mentioned arts have the benefit of decades or more of sportive combat and refinement for their respective rulesets. FMA would have a lot of catching up to do. In which case, why make the effort when you can simply go to these other already established arts?

    I don't know what the solution is for FMA. Many of us are very close generationally to the masters that did use the techniques we learn in WWII and other true forms of combat. But, the further we get from these masters the higher the potential for people who have no clue what they are doing.

    We've all seen the WEKAF competitions, some of us like them for some reasons, others hate them. Dog brothers offer a nice format for combative pressure testing. There's also the recent SFW. Maybe these combat "forums" will be the future of FMA?
  5. Pinuti

    Pinuti New Member

    "Yes, you can take out the weapons and translate some technique, but the other mentioned arts have the benefit of decades or more of sportive combat and refinement for their respective rulesets. FMA would have a lot of catching up to do. In which case, why make the effort when you can simply go to these other already established arts?"

    Well the idea orignally was to find an FMA that emphasizes more on unarmed as opposed to weapons whether it may have some weapon aspect such as yaw yan, which can be stand up or used against other unarmed striking arts such as karate, muay thai, silat etc. Sanshao is a recently created hybrid system by the Chinese which is based mostly on older Chinese martial arts (kung fu) while still modified to keep up with modern kickboxing.

    "why make the effort when you can simply go to these other already established arts?"
    Well unless your suggesting someone from the Philippines learns karate and calls it a Filipino unarmed martial art which originated in the Philippines is legit, I don't think we can call karate, kickboxing, judo a FMA.
  6. silat1

    silat1 Active Member

    Since I live on an island predominately run by filipinos, there has been several times when my fma class has fought against different styles.. We used to compete against Muay Thai, TKD and Kenpo when I had an active school., when we used to go to these tourneys with the mindset to win, but one of two things would happen.. We would get disqualified for excessive contact or would take the respective divisions which my students fought in.. A few military members came to one of our sparring sessions when we were getting ready for a tourney and they never returned.. One of my advanced students asked them why didn't they want to come back and train, the answer was we were crazy because we fought full body shots with controlled contact to the face and head region..
  7. jspeedy

    jspeedy Member

    Im not suggesting you take another art from another culture and call it filipino. Although, you potentially could do that like the Brazilians did with BJJ. But like BJJ it was called Jujitsu for some time and may still have the same name in Brazil, I don't really know. What I think might help popularize FMA empty hand is a sportive ruleset that favors FMA fighters. Something like a return to the old marquis de queens bury boxing ruleset, that favored a more we'll rounded and dirty form of boxing. I'd have to double check but I believe the older rules allowed low kicks and a fair amount of standup grappling, add in some elbows and you might have a sport that FMA could jump right into.
  8. jspeedy

    jspeedy Member

    Correction to my above post, I mentioned "marquess of queensberry" (auto correct butchered it for me). The "marquess of Queensberry rules" are actually the precursor to the modern boxing ruleset. The "London prize ring rules" were the older ruleset which allowed for a more dirty fight, where holds and throws were allowed in addition to spiked shoes. Seems the older ruleset might favor the FMA practitioner and allow some standing dumog and low leg attacks.
  9. Pinuti

    Pinuti New Member

    I completely agree on creating a rule set that an FMA style that focuses on empty hands can do. You have to consider that most of the worlds most effective arts are empty handed. When it comes to weapons in the military, sticks and knives are rarely involved compared to guns and unarmed combat.
  10. Pinuti

    Pinuti New Member

    I'm curious as to waht your fma style focused on. Was it more on unarmed combat or weaponry?
  11. blindside

    blindside student

    I think the FMA would be coming a little late to the party. If you want standup do Muay Thai, want to add takedowns, do sanshou/sanda, want to go all the way to groundfighting do MMA. I don't think you need a new ruleset, you need a Filipino fighting club that wants to do this under whatever style.

    "Most effective arts are empty handed." I totally respect empty handed arts, I study them, I do them, but what do you mean by "effective?" If lives were on the line an the guy standing between me and life was a BJJ/Muay Thai/MMA/Judo/whatever champ and I had a knife, I would feel comfortable saying that I am going to "win" way more than 60%. Weapons are force multipliers.
  12. jspeedy

    jspeedy Member

    Weapons, duh! Seriously though, I think you'd be hard up to find an FMA system that teaches empty hand as a primary means of combat. With the exception of sikaran, which I don't know much about. I'm curious if sikaran is true FMA or if there's a TKD or some other influence modified by Filipino practitioners.

    As blindside said above, it's late in the game for empty hand FMA, but I do think it's possible for FMA to make a name for itself. First, however FMA guys will have to stop hating on sports systems and claiming to have the true "deadly" art. I think FMA would do well in a standup fight with striking, clinching, and standup grappling allowed, but excluding kicks. Sure the FMA guys could learn kicks or add them in but then you create a need for FMA practitioners to go to other systems to increase the skillset. FMA already has punching/elbows, standup grappling, trapping/clinching, takedowns, and some trips/sweeps. Most systems however have a more combative mindset where there is no opportunity to tap to a joint lock. You grab an arm and wrench it, the element of surprise is important to the success of these techniques and if you allow an opponent to tap he will escape. We could focus on the non combative techniques and refine skill. Take the skills FMA already has and make a ruleset that favors FMA. Just as the Gracies did with BJJ, they removed penalties for holding and stalling on the ground and MMA was born.

    I see the concern by Pinuti, the majority of FMA videos you see are compliant demos. Demos IMO imply skill but don't guarantee real time ability against a resisting opponent. Many people see demos and think that's reality. Then they see real sparring and figure the actual fighting group doesn't have "the real" deadly technique. Ultimately, practitioners would benefit from both approaches sport and combative practice.

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