Hard Time.

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by arnisador, Feb 25, 2009.

  1. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    The National Geographic Channel special series "Hard Time" on Georgia's maximum security prisons includes two brief segments on the training of correctional officer cadets. In addition to showing some boxing, elbow/knee strikes, from-the-knees BJJ training, a standard arm bar, and a vaguely more dumog-style take-down against a knife strike in this episode ("Breaking In"), they showed a shiv actually found in the prison, with a large blade that had a retention cord.

    I didn't watch most of the rest of the show.
     
  2. chiangmaiheadman

    chiangmaiheadman New Member

    I retired as a lieutenant after working 25 years in New York State prisons,including maximum security. During my career I supervised the gang and srug investigations and also the riot response team. I felt that much of the UDT (unarmed defensive tactics) as well as baton tactics taught to cadets was useless in a real situation, so as a result I had my own classes in the prison physical fitness center where we practiced more useful techniques. However, I did not see the television special and cannot comment on what they teach cadets in Georgia.
     
  3. sharon.gmc

    sharon.gmc New Member

    that's very interesting. i wish I caught that.
     
  4. silat1

    silat1 Active Member

    When I was going through the academy for the law enforcement agency I work for now, we were taught controlling applications from the MACH program.. I had to laugh during the training as I was partnered up with a former police officer from Honolulu PD who had played football in a semi pro league before going to work in HPD. He and I were called out because we were slamming the hell outta each other and when the instructors asked why we were hitting so hard, we told them that we wanted to make sure the stuff actually worked.. The command is still using the MACH stuff, but there is a subtle underground movement to get a new training program in place when our training goes contract within the next couple of months.. Should be interesting
     
  5. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    It's amazing to me how often such orgs. change programs. Why hasn't some agency sponsored a scientific study of what works best for most people in these situations? Are the types of attacks from inmates/suspects changing that rapidly?

    Hard Time is still being repeated, I believe, if anyone wants to see for themselves!
     
  6. Carol

    Carol <font color = blue><b>Technical Administrator</b><

    No, but the cronyism does. Gotta make sure that training $$$$ benefits the proper brother-in-law. ;)
     
  7. chiangmaiheadman

    chiangmaiheadman New Member

    The basic deficiency in UDT training methods, at least in department I worked for, but from what I hear in many, is that the primary concern of the people who develop these programs is to lessen liability in court due to injuries sustained by the offenders. The problem is the offenders are not concerned with this. The stupidity is they are teaching tactics that may be useful against some passively resisting drunk but are useless against a 250 pound convict who has been fighting all his life and has not much to do except pump iron every day, and on top of that is very likely armed with a shank or some other homemade weapon. I do not condone senseless brutality, and I always believed in using only the force neccessary to control the situation. But sometimes this was force up to and including deadly physical force.
     
  8. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I'm sure cronyism and liability concerns are big issues, but still--one would think that someone would have put together a study showing that the right cross tends to work while the arm bar is rarelt successful, or whatever the case may be!
     
  9. chiangmaiheadman

    chiangmaiheadman New Member

    You would think so, and perhaps someone has, but not that I am aware of. Actually everyone knows the techniques they teach at the academy were useless, and noone uses them anyway for that reason.. But if some inmate sues because he was injured by someone using an effective but unapproved technique, the department would just say "we never taught the officer that technique" and consequently the department would not be liable. On the other hand, if an employee uses the stupid techniques they teach and gets injured, he is just out of luck.
     
  10. Shaun

    Shaun New Member

    Thanks for the information and your first hand perspective.
     
  11. Shaun

    Shaun New Member

    You are right about that Carol.
     
  12. chiangmaiheadman

    chiangmaiheadman New Member

    Thank you also Shaun. I do not know much about arnis but I checked out your website and was very impressed.
     
  13. Shaun

    Shaun New Member

    Thanks Lamont.
     
  14. I've tried to get my foot in the door training correctional officers. Everyone I've talked to has told me it's a liability on the facilities part to have their officers trained extensively. They said officers are free to continue training on their one, this way the facility can deny that they taught them to use that kind of force.

    To me, FMA would be perfect for this job, given the amount of stick/blade work we do.
     
  15. chiangmaiheadman

    chiangmaiheadman New Member

    I believe the ideal correctional officer training for defense would be a combination of FMA and jujitsu. There are two state prisons in Fishkill, New York, one of which I used to work at, and there is also a very high-ranking FMA instructor in Fishkill so I figure he probably has students from corrections, but I don't know as I hadn't worked there since 1986.
     
  16. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I continue to fast forward through these episodes and only stop at what looks interesting. The "Tools of Control" episode featured a search that turned up several shanks. One was an edged weapon shank--it looked to only have a two-inch blade--and the other was a "poker" that looked like a thick wire with a small shard of broken glass attached an inch or two below the point. The officer described the poker as an offensive weapon, due to the lethal injuries it could cause with a stab to the heart of kidney, and the edged shank as a defensive weapon.
     
  17. chiangmaiheadman

    chiangmaiheadman New Member

    I sort of know what the officer means in that the poker type, which in New York we called icepick type, was the kind often used for contract hits and such and the edged types were often for defense or one-on-one fights, but the main thing was the inmates made shanks from whatever material they could get their hands on and consequently edged shanks were sometimes used offensively and icepicks defensively. The Bloods used to do something called "razor tag'' where they would just run by the victim and cut his face or neck with a razor. There was also "running the gears" which was a murder technique where they stabbed the guy and then cut him up through the stomach and across like shifting gears. A very popular and nasty weapon was a folded over can lid with tape which they used for slashing.
     
  18. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Ouch! The inventiveness is really amazing. As we say in the FMAs, anything can be a weapon, I suppose.
     

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