Grouped or Ungrouped

Discussion in 'Balintawak' started by Epa, Oct 18, 2005.

  1. G22

    G22 -== Banned ==-

    Yes, that is true. You have come to the right place to ask it would seem.
  2. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member


    Check the time stamps, you will that three people replied after you, me being one fo them. I did not mean for it to look like a bunch of people ganging up on you. I saw your reply and questions, and hit quote, and replies from there.

    Like I said, contact me (* and you have sent me a PM I still have to read *), and all we can do is go from there.

    Thank you
  3. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    Moderator Nudge

    Gentlemen, Good information here, yet we should either create a new thread or continue the good discussions about Grouped versus Ungrouped.

    Just a slight moderator nudge :)
  4. Dan Anderson

    Dan Anderson Member

    Hi Pete,

    Here is how it happened with me. Tim told me about Manong Ted. Jaye Spiro, who I have known for roughly 20 years, was my sponsor. I was okayed to come over and watch a lesson of Jaye's. During this lesson Manong Ted actually demonstrated some of his art on me (in other words, shut me down completely - it was fascinating) and asked me a number of questions including, "Why do you want to learn Balintawak?" Jaye sponsored me and Manong Ted accepted me.

    So how do YOU go about it? If you have an existing student of Manong Ted's vouch for you, that is the first step. From there it is up to you.

    Dan Anderson
  5. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer New Member


    In regards to whether or not different clubs use different grouping methods, the answer is yes, and no. (Helpful, huh? :lookaroun ) I'll answer from my perspective in Bobby Taboada's Balintawak...

    Generally speaking, there are five groups and a practically limitless number of variations within each group. The groups are not techniques in and of themselves and they're not fighting methods per se; they're training tools. They're designed, intended and used to teach, among other things, attributes such as the use of the left hand, defensive head movement, improve torso flexibility, speed & reflexes, and defend against punches.

    For the purposes of standardizing a basic curriculum, the groups are taught in a prescribed, orderly way. Once the basic group is mastered, there are any number of variations that can be applied. For example, if I play with any other instructors student, they should know the basic groups and a few prescribed variations as a matter of course material. If you want to see their absorption of the attributes, you can apply further variations or "tricks". Different instructors each have their own "trick bags". When two instructors play, anything can happen.

    The use of the grouping method is not a competition or contest. It's a training tool. Whoever is feeding is in control and it's up to them to determine the pace and timing of it. The student reacts as quickly as they can to whatever is fed them. The exercise goes back and forth in a counter-recounter fashion.

    I've been to other clubs and seen other instructors who teach using the grouping method. Although there are certainly different variations, the groups may be called by different names, or they may be taught in a different numerical order, the core concepts have been essentially the same.

    Is one instructional method (grouped, random) more effective than another..? Im' not sure that anyone could really answer that scientifically. How would one be able to measure it?


  6. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member


    Nice Post.

    Thank you
  7. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer New Member


    Good observation. That's precisely how it's done. Senior students begin their development as an instructor by teaching beginning students under the guidance of a qualified instructor. And teaching the grouping method opens up the counters to the grouping method - the beginnings of cuentada.

  8. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    There's a good post on grouping here (on MartialTalk).
  9. Pike

    Pike New Member

    Balintawak systemised basic and grouping

    Hi all
    I was taught cuentada was counter the counter to counter the counter (endless)

    Characteristics of Balintawak teaches fluid motion a natural style of moving the body of which the elements would be at home in Tai Chi Chuan.
    Training in Balintawak will seem very defensive for students starting out, as they are taught to block using the basic drills with the 12 angles of attack.
    The basic drills and how to use the 12 angles of attack are practised in pre-arranged order that anybody off the street would be able to follow very quickly.

    Balintawak builds through it's basic drills to the group system
    to build emphasis on the counter to counter techniques.
    Students are taught counter to counter reactive training to defensive and
    offensive drills, thus moving on to the grouping systems:
    The grouping system will affectively try to answer all the questions asked by the opponent
    who may stab, grab, punch, kick, lock or try to disarm:

    Balintawak as an art does not specifically teach knife, sword or empty hand techniques
    as all the body principles for using them are the same.
    If you understand the principles of Balintawak training you can apply all the variations
    required to enhance weapon techniques:

    There are no secrets to Balintawak just honest hard training and practice,
    Balintawak techniques are taught more effectively with a hands on approach
    and more important one to one with a good instructor.

    This system is more than just stick fighting !

    All instructors and students you will always be learning by training with different body types
    the way they move, fast, slow different reaction time different fighting style.

  10. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer New Member

    Literally translated, it means "to count". The application of it is "counter to counter" or to count on the persons next move ("if I do this, their options are a, b, c, d, etc., etc.")

    Well, sort of... The cuentada aspect is much more than "give and take" or "I strike, you block; you strike, I block". Otherwise, basic defense and countering would be considered cuentada, which it most certainly is not. Once you begin to teach the grouping methods, start to look at what's going on (or not going on, as the case may be) in between the various movements; look for places where you can preempt or interrupt the counter. As in music, what happens between the notes is just as important as the notes themselves.


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