Gross Motor Skills

Discussion in 'General' started by WT_ATL, Nov 3, 2005.

  1. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

    What kind of scenario training do you use to reinforce good response habits? What are some examples of responses that aren't worth training because they aren't reproducable in scenario regardless of the reps in skill only practice?
  2. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

    Good practice. There are many ways to induce/simulate the physiological affects of stress in a training environment.

    In hockey skills development, there is a theory of 'overspeed' training (actually a common athletic development practices) where you go as fast as you can at everything you do: Skating, puckhandling, shooting, passing....

    The idea is that you will get neurologically faster if you maintain 'real play' tempo and therefore your skills will come up to that speed over time.

    Personally, I think it creates a slower learning curve because it also creates multiple repetitions of mistakes, reduced confidence in skills....if it is the only training approach you use.

    Combinging 'overspeed' with sessions that are specifically designed to teach/reinforce fundamental skills is the way I try to train. It's all in the blending.
  3. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

    I remember a Clauswitz quote from back in my NCO days that stated that it was easy to get troops to go to combat for the first time, the hard part was getting them to go back.
  4. Cruentus

    Cruentus Tactician

    Scenario training usually involves role playing with the use of a FIST suit, or sparring type scenario's.

    An example of a non-reproducable skill would be folding knife deployment while under a direct spontanious attack. We are finding that no matter how many reps one puts in of a kinetic opening for example, in a spontanious engagement if the knife isn't in the hand already, it isn't coming out unless there is significant break in action to allow time for deployment (generally at least a full 3 seconds). This makes the case for training in unarmed combat, because that is what one will have to use in a spontaneous engagement until the time is bought to allow for weapon deployment. This breaks down ideas like "because I have a tactical folder (or gun, as the same principle applies) I don't need to really work on unarmed fighting."

    So, as a response not worth training would be a lot of stuff that people do where they are trying to pull there knives in mid-engagement, with no significant sign of a pause in action. For example, trapping hands de-cadena where someone try's to pull a knife from their belt and enter it into the fray. Or a lot of technique sequences I have seen involving a knife being popped open in mid-sequence. These things don't have much real combative application, even if they build attributes to some degree.

    A response WORTH training more comes to light often with these things as well. So in this example, more light is shed on the value of becoming a proficient unarmed fighter and not using your carry weapon as a crutch.

  5. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

    What kind of scenarios/role play do you use as an example? Asking for directions? Detaining a suspect? I am just wondering if your focusing on the responsiveness or training a specific scenario.

    Good point about the folder. In the training video Surviving Edged Weapons produced by Palladin Press, they show a scenario similar to your folder realization. D. Inosanto is in a warehouse and a patrolling LEO approaches to interview. During the interview, D.Inosanto whips out a blade and starts Tazmanian Deviling all over the LEO.

    In most cases were the officer tries to immediately go for the gun the officer is totally unsuccessful. In very few cases the gun makes it to target alignment and in ALL of those cases, the LEO was swiss cheese armed from the slashes with the knife.

    I have found this to be similar to training with our "Pickle in the Middle" game where someone stands in the middle of a circle of students w/eyes closed. They only open their eyes when they are touched or when someone shouts "OPEN." Then they have to figure out what the attack is, choose a response, act out that response (dealing with the resisting attacker as they get advance in skill and ability) and move to an escape route. We usually identify a door in the room or make up a marker of some kind if the room isn't ideal (gym, community center....). People forget techinques, freeze up, stop in the middle because they 'screwed up,' and can't remember which way is the escape route ALL the time. Even advanced players get disoriented or flub regularly. THe real skill that differentiates the beginners from the advanced is how fluidly they adjust to those "OOPS!" events.

    The scary thing in Surviving Edged Weapons is the scenes were they show documented video of inmates teaching/training with other inmates in knife/shank/shiv fighting skills. These guys are not connecting good personal values with martial arts. They are just eaching people how to fight and kill with lethal stabbing tools.

    I would think that prisoners wouldn't be able to do that given the supervision of guards and the schedules they have to keep now, but it appears that there is a history of inmates teaching inmates lethal skills and making improvised edged weapons.

    To me that would validate the necessity for a minimum of h2h training that could be combined with other skills to be completely defensively versed.
  6. G22

    G22 -== Banned ==-

    While the point of that scenario was well taken, it was a "set-up for failure" IMO. As I recall it, the scenario was a "suspicious male" call not a burglary in progress. If it was a Burg call I would think the officer would have engaged from a distance instead of walking right up to the guy. In the real world you cant address every person from 21' away from behind a tree for cover. In that situation, my money would be on ANYBODY getting stabbed, even Dan himself if caught flatfooted. I seem to recall a proficient Systema instructor being killed during a fight recently. Training IS vital, but the laws of chance and averages states that the more crap you walk into the more likely the odds that you wont be walking away. So yes, absolutely, empty hand fighting should be the foundation, but its a last ditch "Oh ****!" better than nothing solution IMO.

    Sort of a reverse "fight continuum": In an ideal world I would tell people to....plan to avoid danger....Stay out of dangerous places/avoid dangerous people......Stay Alert when you cant....leave/ 911....fight with weapons....fight empty handed. In that order when and if possible.
  7. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

    I agree that anyone can get caught on any given day. I do think that the video as well as our own real life and training experience supports the idea that training with a purpose should be the majority of your time spent training. Training a skill for skills sake alone is fun and rewarding as a sense of accomplishment, but if your goal - even secondarily - is self defense, focus on getting the fundamentals down cold, then create situations where application is more important than appearance.

    I don't see many disarms happening in WEKAF events or wrist locks in UFC events. That isn't because people don't train them, but because under pressure they are too intricate and the consequences of failure are very high. Heck, even B.Taboada said that training stick disarms (fine motor/intricate) are great for hand eye training but that in a real fight they aren't something to consider. If your in a position by chance, sure do the disarm, but they are too complicated to go into a non ballistic weapon fight thinking "My goal is to take that stick/knife away with a disarm"...
  8. Danny T

    Danny T New Member

    Re: don't see disarms happening...

    So true. Training disarms to disarm another is a waste of time! Unless you are extemely lucky it isn't going to happen. Train disarms to be in a position to recongize a disarm is available or so you know how to counter them. Attacking is far more useful and safer. In our training of disarms we are constantly enforcing; "Never attempt a disarm against another if the head or the hand is working properly." What makes disarms work is the hits. It is due to proper positioning while attacking the opponent that disarms happen. Never disarm for the sake of disarming. The disarm happens because you are hitting!

    Danny T
  9. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I think of the disarms principally as things I might use after I got a good hit in if I didn't want to continue at that level but instead wanted to de-escalate; or, as something I'd probably use an empty-handed variant of even if I'm training it with a stick. But being able to recognize that one is in a "disarm position" (however that may have happened!) is important too, and I emphasize that when I teach--it doesn't matter how you got here, it just matters that you are here.
  10. G22

    G22 -== Banned ==-

    In a real knife fight you might as well shove your arms in an industrial sized blender...if its disarm or die I guess you have no other choice, but I wouldnt train thinking you are just going to simply disarm....
  11. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I was thinking about sticks.
  12. JPR

    JPR New Member

    Disarms seem to me to be like eclipses, when everything aligns just right you have one, but standing around looking for one to happen wastes a lot of time.

    This being said, the only way you will recognize the moment is if you isolate and train disarm techniques until they are second nature to you. When we spar, we often find disarms. With sticks they seem to come most naturally from the snake, which doesn’t really involve any fine motor skills and seems to be reasonably easy to perform. Knife is (pardon the pharsing) a bit more dicey. I have had some impact disarms when guntinging an incoming thrust / slash and have also been able to pick up the knife hand and get a push / pull disarm (grasp the thumb padding of O’s hand and pull, use the back of my knife hand / arm against flat of O’s blade to push) again not what I would consider a fine motor skill. But at no time was I sparring to specifically find these, they just popped up and I took them.

    Since I don’t troll around looking for live stick or knife fights on the street I don’t have any experience there and can only relate what I see when I spar.

  13. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

    I like this phrase of 'finding' disarms. Your there, you've trained disarms and 'find' yourself in that position and can recognize the opportunity and take it.

    This makes sense also as a marker of improvement. Say you are in free play and don't notice a disarm that you are technically proficient in but tactically unable to apply (meaning in freeplay). Seemingly out of the blue, you are aware of the position and start using it tactically. That is a sign of progression. The next level would be to be tactically aware on the larger scale of scenario/context where you can decide when and where that disarm opportunity is the right choice or wrong choice.

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