Discussion in 'General' started by The Phalanx, Nov 12, 2008.

  1. The Phalanx

    The Phalanx FMA's Frank Lucas

    I've always wondered if there are any grappling arts in FMA... I mean I know there are grappling methods but I mean something similar to BJJ... Something that focuses on ground work...
  2. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    Ground work is very vague you mean positional i.e. mount, guard etc....ground work for me means a lot of things...drawing my blade while on my back, doing what is necessary to regain the feet....ambushing a guy while standing and slamming him to the ground and following him down with my blade in tact far as a sport grappling goes I can honestly say I do not know. Here again I try to take all my skill sets that I have acquired over the last 28 years of doing this and build methods that work on the ground as well as standing...however I am not an advocate of rolling around looking for locks and holds...I would rather teach my guys to get to their feet by any means necessary. We do a lot of drills to obtain our blade from multiple positions (our back, sides etc.) and to go to work with it to regain our feet.....
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2008
  3. The Phalanx

    The Phalanx FMA's Frank Lucas

    I agree on some of your points and I disagree with one of them...

    Since most fights end up on the ground, one should learn some type of ground fighting... I do think that looking for locks and chokes are an important part of fighting... I mean trying to get up and stand as much as possible is good but that is not always the case, anything can and will happen...

    I've seen street fights where the fights end up on the ground right away... One who has a skill in ground fighting and looking for locks and chokes has a great advantage... Especially if you don't have a weapon in your hand...
  4. I disagree. You start looking for locks and chokes on the ground and a bunch of his buddies could come running over and use your head as a football. Or the police could turn up just as his arm goes "Snap!". Get it done ASAP and get off the floor if you were unfortunate enough to be down there in the first place.

    As PG Mike says in BZ we learn counters to chokes, shoots, etc, etc. That is for when we are empty handed. If you have a knife / stick I would seriously question your training if you end up on the ground and it's not your choice.

    The thing I also come across is that pople are in their comfort zone on the floor due to over training the positions and IMO that's not good at all.

    Just my 2 centavos.
  5. rshawtx

    rshawtx New Member

    Looking for locks in all the wrong places

    Looking for locks take a while. Even a skilled ground-fighter/BJJ practitioner will take more than a few seconds to implement a lock if and only if the situation presents itself. Consider also that your opponent isn't just going to *let* you apply a lock on him... so there is the delay introduced by that as well. This is what the makes the sport great to watch. Also, once a lock is made, submission will not instantaneously occur either. Contrast that with the amount of time it takes to employ an edged weapon and the immediate effect that approach has.

    Don't get me wrong, BJJ/JJ is a great way to stay fit and to increase your tool set. That's why I dabble in it myself. What I am saying is looking for locks is a luxury that can only be indulged in if the other person isn't trying to kill/shiv you (i.e. a controled sports environment where you can tap out.)

    Now here is where the rub is: Submission grappling vs. getting shived for real. The adjectives alone speak volumes. The former has a sport application that may be a useful tool and the latter is combative. One will win you trophies, the other: the winner gets to go home. This is also the case in Krav Maga--getting on the ground and looking for a lock is not the way to go if you get ambushed in the street by multiple attackers. That is a sure way of getting your head kicked in or your lung punctured.
  6. tim_stl

    tim_stl Junior Member

    yes, there are plenty of indigenous wrestling arts in the philippines (buno, dumog, boltong, etc.), they are just generally hard to find.

    in the harimaw buno that i study, there are similarities to bjj, but also many differences. for instance, there is no 'guard' position in harimaw buno, there is conscious attention to striking and biting, and there is more emphasis on clinching, standing grappling, and takedowns, which tends to make it more akin to western wrestling. there are three basic types of competitions, marked by conditions for winning: 1) throw your opponent 2) pin your opponent 3) submit your opponent.

  7. geezer

    geezer Member

  8. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    I'm with you geezer..I'm 45 years young myself...and have a lot of life's plaguing injuries to show for it..broke my back, blew out a knee etc etc....for me to assume that doing BJJ will some how aid me is in my mind to admit defeat..I would rather take the years of knowledge I have and build for myself things that I know I can do....and yes getting to my blade is one of them..and my pistol as well.....the old saying goes OLD AGE AND TREACHERY OVER YOUTH AND STRENGTH ANY DAY....

    I do not duel, nor do I roll with people me if I have to use what I have learned it will be in preservation of mine or my family and friends life..and if it comes to that then Katy bar the door..because were playing with knives and guns and clubs and bats and bricks and boots and even a 1999 Chevy archaic attitude? Damn right!...
  9. The Phalanx

    The Phalanx FMA's Frank Lucas

    I don't agree that age is a matter when it comes to "rolling on the ground"... Rickson Gracie is 50 and can still beat some of the current MMA fighters, Royce Gracie is 41 and can also do the same...

    Yes, some of you will say that MMA fights are not realistic and the argument can go on and on...

    But my main point is that age plays no role, especially if you take care of yourself... Hell, even Helio Gracie who is 95 can still hold his own against a young person...

    But back to ground work... I do believe that is very important that one must know a ground game... Not just in MMA but also as practical training...

    But in the end, it's what works for you... BJJ might not be your thing, or FMA might not be your thing, it's what works for you...

    Though I am not a big proponent of McDojos...
  10. rshawtx

    rshawtx New Member

    I could've sworn I saw a video on YouTube where this ground fighter tried to defend against a knife. He got stuck 12-14 times just on the way down. There is no way that dude is going to have enough blood in him to hold a submission lock after 12 hits.

    Ground fighting is a tool. As with all tools, you have to use it in context. You don't use a saw to drive a nail. In a controlled sport environment, grappling is great. Yes, even in a Dog Brothers or a Buno/Dumog match it would be appropo because there is a referee and both fighters will still walk away. In a street fight though where points don't matter, you better end the fight in the time it takes to go to ground and apply a lock or you are not going to get up permanently. Why do you think FMA and KVM to mention only 2 discourage against it.
  11. AZEskrimador

    AZEskrimador In All You Do... Be You!

    The smartest thing to do, in my opinion, is to put the other guy down and down HARD!!
    If I go down with him, it's just to put the finishing touches on the beat down so that it is decisively over not to stay down with him (Hey, he shouldn't have made me go there).

    In my experience, rolling around on the ground with someone in a street situation is, most definitely, not the smartest way to go. Edged weapons, other hostiles and terrain are definite causes for concern.

    As far as dumping what you know for a total ground game. I wouldn't suggest it. Some ground training can be a good thing but if you plan to go there off the bat, in the street, you might wanna leave your loved ones a note apologizing for the dumb move (just sayin').

    Just my opinion but most times a person should just find a way to build on what one knows as opposed to just starting from scratch. There's no substitute for experience.
    Although, luck and a damn good technique don't hurt.

    Train Well Guys....
  12. chubbybutdangerous

    chubbybutdangerous CHUBBY MEMBER

    OK, I haven't been in more than a few fights, and most of those date back to school days some 30+ years ago. Yes, those fights did end up on the ground, probably because I was a wrestler and that's all I knew. And these were basically "contests" of ego, not desperate, kill-or-be-killed encounters. Now, I'm an old fart, I know a lot more ways to hurt people, and I don't "fight" anymore. If I have no choice, I will, however, defend myself, and I really don't feel like taking it to the ground. My intention would be to put the other guy there and make sure he didn't get up.

    So is this a stupid, unrealistic attitude? Should I dump my FMA training for remedial BJJ and hope that in my mid fifties I can beat a twenty-year-old rolling on the pavement? Any opinions? - Originally posted by geezer

    :bow:Greetings all. Personally, I'd never dump any of my fma knowledge. But cross training is a beautiful thing. Also, someone else mentioned there's plenty of "grappling" in fma. All should cross train if possible. And if you've seriously trained with good people in the past, you'll see how alot of what is done on the ground is just a variation of what you should/could be doing standing. Geezer and Azeskrimador, did you ever notice how sometimes I've asked one of the BJJ instructors what they call a technique that I just used with you guys? It's because I know we both have the same base technique just done a little differently. Heck, half the disarms you 2 guys use, in my opinion, are based on joint locks/breaks. Anyway, even though in real life I would prefer to end an altercation without going to the ground, I'd be stupid/ignorant to not train for that "just in case" scenario. Remember, if you don't know something, someone just might beat you with it.
  13. Ryno

    Ryno New Member

    Besides being an arnisador, I also train in judo/sombo. If I were defending against a knife with no weapon of my own, I would not want to grapple with my opponent. If I were to have to grapple with them, it would be a quick throw, then escape. I would NOT follow them to the ground. Conversely if I had a knife and really needed to harm them, tossing them on the ground would help to prevent them from escaping.

    Against an impact weapon from a defensive perspective, grappling is a very good option. The weapon becomes an extra lever for a grappler who knows how to use it.

    Obviously if you can defend yourself and stay on your feet, this is great. The mobility and options for escape, especially if facing multiple opponents is a tremendous asset. But it is foolish to say that you can never be taken down, and that it just won't happen. If no person in the world could get you to the ground, then you should be playing football in the NFL, as you'd make a heck of a running back. It earns a pretty good paycheck from what I hear.

    The truth is that you can be taken down. It's best to have some idea how to deal with that scenerio, even if you don't want to base your game around that. If you think that just because you've got a stick or knife, you are not at risk against a grappler, then you are wrong. You have to understand at least the basics of the grappling game to be able to survive.

    Even if you have a knife and shank the guy before he slams you into the ground, would he die instantaneously? If not, then you've got someone holding you down, wrestling your knife away from you, and looking to slit your throat with your own blade. But you can't do anything because you don't even know the most simple wrestling escapes or reversals. Why take this chance? Learn some basic grappling.

    I learned some Buno in my FMA training, but to be honest, it's usefulness is somewhat limited in use against a skilled grappling specialist. Possibly this was just due to my own shortcomings as a student, but I'm thinking not. What I learned was fairly simplistic and may have been somewhat effective against an untrained tackle attempt. But against a decent wrestler, judoka, or even a linebacker who really knew how to take someone down, I would have been toast.

    If you don't repeatedly practice taking someone down, defending takedowns, and wrestling on the ground, you just won't be good at it. And it is an aspect of combat that any martial artist should have some rudimentary knowledge of, even if it isn't their preferred specialty.
  14. animal_stylez

    animal_stylez New Member

    It's a standard part of ours (and I would think everyone's) training to train and prepare for the "what if's". What if he had a gun? What if he was a trained stick fighter? What if he there were 3 guys? What if I had to protect my family? What if it was in a dark alley in the back streets of gotham, and you were faced with 10 street thugs dressed as clowns?
  15. chubbybutdangerous

    chubbybutdangerous CHUBBY MEMBER

    :bow:I know I've already posted on this subject once. But I just wanted to comment on the "all fights end on the ground" thing. Years ago, I wasn't the most warm fuzzy guy I am now. And unfortunately, when I first left the military I was not happy with most "civilian" mindsets. Like an idiot I hung out in a lot of the wrong bars, and like an idiot I also had occasion to defend myself or try to diffuse another altercation. And to be honest with you, every single "real" fight I was involved in never lasted more than maybe 20 seconds and none of them went to the ground. Not because I'm a bad ass, it's because that's just the way it happened. I've had a few "messing around" with friends situations that went to the ground, but any time I felt "in harms way" and my well being was on the line it was over quite quickly. That said, I still thing ground work is essential "just in case", but my personal experience shows me that I don't necessarily go to the ground in most instances.
  16. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    Chubby B I hear you brother. I think I was in a lot of those bars with you...LOL. Not much ground fighting needed if you ambush the **** out of him....first & last shot if you feel my drift. But I concur a ground game is a must....don't have to be BJJ...hell, my old teacher Sensei Rollnshank had fantastic ground fighting skills.

    PG MB


    Carabao Clan
  17. Ryno

    Ryno New Member

    PG MB nailed it. Most serious fights don't start with two people squaring off, and agreeing to start. They are almost universally started by a sucker punch. One good right cross to the jaw of someone caught unaware, and it's usually nap time for the receiver. I've seen this many times.

    But if the shot doesn't land cleanly, people often panic. "I just got hit!" Then they go to clinch up with the guy, attempting to smother the blows. Any time someone is being out-hit, they will either retreat, or attempt to grapple. It is rare that someone will just stand there trying to swing when they are getting battered terribly. In this case, the grappling match is on!
  18. jeff5

    jeff5 New Member

    I believe in this day and age it would be foolish not to know some grappling. More important than knowing locks/chokes etc., its very important to know what NOT to do. For instance if someone has you mounted, don't give them your arm, you'll get arm barred, etc. You have to assume that if you get into an altercation that there is a chance it might go to the ground and you have to know how to move and what to do.

    It's all a matter of goals though. My goal if taken down is to escape and get into a superior position and end the fight either through either striking or a lock/choke of some sort. (or break as the situation determines)

    I agree that grappling with a blade just equals death in most scenarios. And to say that all or most fights end up on the ground probably isn't true, although I'd say that most end up in some type of stand up/grappling/clinch range sooner or later.
  19. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise Senior Member Supporting Member

    I obviously do a lot of grappling using both Filipino style grappling and also Brazilian Jiujitsu which I have been training in a long, long time. In IRT we also practice utilizing tools while grappling or drawing them in the moment to defend ourselves. Here is a quick clip from my Tactical Push Dagger DVD of a folding knife being drawn when an opponent reaches for a boot knife. Enjoy.


    A good ground game is a must but like every one else here I do not want to be on the ground but up and on my feet as quickly as possible. To many bad things can happen when you are tied up on the ground. If the guy's friends show up you are toast. Still if it is just a one on one encounter it is very important to be ready and able to go on the ground.
  20. el maldito de cebu

    el maldito de cebu New Member

    for me in experience I also dont want to be in the ground but rather on top but in tough situation it is effective to throw you opponent or swip it with ying-yang principle to amke it fatal special giving them some broken bones. interesting vidoe clip very nice.

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