Gracie Combatives???

Discussion in 'General' started by The Phalanx, Aug 2, 2009.

  1. The Phalanx

    The Phalanx FMA's Frank Lucas

    Anybody seen this yet? I've seen the commercials and some clips on YouTube... It looks impressive but I am iffy about pulling off and armbar in the streets against an armed opponent... As well as going to the ground against an armed opponent...
  2. Brock

    Brock Asha'man

    I've seen it, but I don't know. Just seems like the Gracie family trying to capitalize on the a trend by adding "Combatives" to the name.
  3. bluesbassist

    bluesbassist New Member

    IMO, Brazilian jujitsu (Gracie or other) is part of the equation but not the entire answer and for them to portray it as the final answer to all self defense encounters is irresponsible.
  4. Killbot

    Killbot Sereeus Biznus

    meh. its kind of crap in my opinion. Alot of the place I see teching it have used it as a tack-on, or ptromotional bonus. From what I've seen, it might be good to learn a few moves...everyone in any martial arts should know at least one mount reversal, one re-guard, one side escape and one sweep and how not to get choked from a headlock or RNC (and not that slap in ther balls rake the shin nonsense).
    The worst thing I see is "taking it to the ground" sort of takes priority. IMO you avoid the ground but if you get there, you either get up quick or finish it quick from there....but you should train to hit the ground.

    The combatives I think is basically 32 techniques that you learn and repeat and they give you a blue belt. This take about 6 months they say. ..... a blue belt in 6 months. I think this method leaves alot to be desired in teaching effectiveness under pressure and at speed.

    AT LEAST its not an online thing. Gracies are doing that too and thats by far the biggest load of steam I've seen in awhile.
    And don't get me wrong, the material is good,..its Gracies... but the training method is attrocious.
  5. fangjian

    fangjian Jo Dong

    All of the clips I've seen of it make it seem like a decent course.

    Could you find the clip where they are submitting an opponent with a weapon. Thanks.
  6. punisher73

    punisher73 Member

    I agree, the "combatives" are basically the GJJ style curriculum that was taught to obtain a blue belt. It's focus is on the way Helio taught the style before the large sports explosion. Their focus is on street applicable techniques and not things that will only work in a tournament.

    I would recommend the series if you are studying in a sports oriented BJJ school and want to add some self-defense ground skills to your toolbox.

    As a stand alone (meaning you don't train in a BJJ/Judo school) I don't think you can learn it since there are so many details that are needed to make it work.
  7. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    It sounds like a good filler for a ground game that may need a booster shot. I look at it this is may not be for everyone, but if there is something good there one should take what they can from it and fit it into his personal flow. From what I seen it isn't to bad but as was mentioned before it is simply a piece to a puzzle..know matter the art if the man on the trigger can't pull it then it is as useful as a fart in a whirl wind.
  8. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise Senior Member Supporting Member

    Hey Mike,

    Good points! I think if you are already studying BJJ then having it as a reference tool might be worthwhile but to try and attempt to learn from it without having an actual instructor. Well in the end I think you may ingrain some bad habits! [​IMG]
  9. jwinch2

    jwinch2 Member

    I strongly believe that the Gracie Combatives program is a very good idea. I am in a location of the country where there are so many great BJJ schools to choose from that it is almost unfair. I have schools run by Leo Dalla, Pedro Sauer, Lloyd Irvin, a GJJ school, as well as many others. Unfortunately, every one of these programs are almost entirely sport oriented. There is virtually zero focus on defense/self-offense/combatives and as a result, when I visited the various schools I round myself repeatedly in positions where I knew that in a defensive situation, I was opening myself up for serious problems.

    Is the Gracie Combatives program going to fix all of that? Of course not, there are holes in every style which is why we have so many to choose from. However, receiving training in a ground program that has the mindset of combatives, weapons retention, and how to get off of the ground can only be a good thing. Too many on here think "Oh, the last thing I want to do is end up on the ground" and assume that they can avoid it. If you are one of those people, you are living with your head in the sand. I don't want to end up on the ground either. But, I sure as hell want to know what to do if I end up there. People often forget that submissions started out as joint destructions and there is no reason at all why they cannot and should not be trained that way. If I am getting my ass handed to me on the ground and I have the opportunity to pull and arm bar or kimura, I am going to take it. At that point, I can decide whether I want to stop there or continue on and wreck the joint based off of the situation at hand. We work limb destructions all the time in FMA while standing, why not do it on the ground as well? Everytime I hear someone saying, "I don't want to find myself looking for submissions in a fight", I think to myself "do you not train grappling while standing? Can you not see the natural progression to incapacitation of your attacker from simply continuing on past the point where you might stop in a sport environment?

    Are you always going to be able to reach your weapon? What if your attacker also has a weapon on the ground? Can you reach, deploy, and effectively utilize your blade while on your back and getting elbowed or hammer fisted in the face repeatedly? What about on your stomach? What if the "likes to fight guy" that ends up starting crap with you is a former HS wrestler and locks up your strong side arm so that you cannot reach your weapon? Do you have a plan? Can you execute it?

    I am a relative neophyte to FMA but have been around the Martial Arts scene for quite some time now. By and large my observation is that the people who decry grappling training are the same ones who think that they can avoid being taken down and will just eye gouge their way out of a bad position, like their attacker is unable to simply just return the favor.

    Having a program that can allow someone to attain basics of ground combat with a street proven skill set in a relatively short amount of time can only be a good thing. As long as you are learning these skills from a good instructor, put them in place with a proper mindset, identify any flaws in the individual techniques which might make them unsuitable for certain situations, and train them regularly as you would any other skill, you will be fine.
  10. bluesbassist

    bluesbassist New Member

    Having a BJJ belt used to mean something more than a McDojo belt. Now, I don't know.
  11. Killbot

    Killbot Sereeus Biznus

    That was exactly what I was thinking of. Marcelo Montinerro also has one of those I think. I'm not a big proponent of those at all.

    Agree with this 100%...and I probably would have used the same You must be from the south. ;)

    I also think the "sports oriented" BJJ comments are correct. I'm lucky that our BJJ school focuses on BJJ as a fight skill, and competition comes second. When we have guys that show real potential, we send them to competitions, but sometimes we compete sometimes we don't.

    I personally focus on BJJ as a fight skill and try to add the awareness of weapons and dirty fighting to my practice as I do enough FMA that I want things to work together..not against each other.

    My biggest issue with the GCombatives is time table. Your not going to pick up the feel for ground fighting in 6 months or so by learning a specific set of 32 techniques. And I certainly wouldn't consider anyone who complete's that course as a bluebelt.
    But is it better than nothing..Hell yea. Does it deal with everything? No. Is it a good supplement? maybe...if you get the right teacher and put the right amount of time into it. So, I'm not throwing out the window.
    I'd openly challange a Gracie Combatives bluebelt who had it for 1 year and feel confident I'd beat them. Am I sure? no. never. Am I pretty sure. yeh. (not trying to be on of those dbags or internet tough guys, just color commentary. ; ) )

    Alright thats enough of me down-talking this. Alot of this mastery-in-months stuff just eats at me a bit. lol.
  12. jwinch2

    jwinch2 Member

    I don't see it as a mastery in months system or even a comprehensive program. I see it as what it is, a program designed to provide practitioners with street proven techniques that will give someone a solid base in ground work which can be added into a system of study. At the end of the day, basics are basics for a reason and that is what you are most likely to fall back on in a combative situation anyways. Most competitive grapplers will even tell you that even though they have a ton of techniques at their disposal, they find themselves relying on certain ones during competition, as they are the ones that they know they can reliably pull off against someone who is close to their own skill level and who is trying to stop them from doing them. I honestly don't see how this is any different.

    From my understanding, the original GJJ defensive curriculum was not that in depth and is also required to be learned in Gracie Barra schools before someone can test for blue. In this latest iteration, as long as someone has to test it against a resisting opponent maintaining quality control, I don't have much of a problem with it.

    The video testing, I do have a problem with...
  13. bluesbassist

    bluesbassist New Member

    I have respect for bjj and the Gracies. But I have a problem with over hyped marketing like this:

    The message is that by learning 36 Gracie techniques you're set to defend yourself in any street situation. Not only that you don't have to be in shape or anything. Just watch the DVDs (and pay the $) and you'll be a bad ass.

    We all know it's just not that easy.
  14. Ryno

    Ryno New Member

    A GJJ combatives blue belt is not seen as a real BJJ blue belt by many/most BJJ players.

    Unless you can actually grapple with another skilled grappler, you won't get too much out of a video. So much of grappling is a feel thing that learning from a video could be nearly a total waste of time unless you already have a grappling background.
  15. jwinch2

    jwinch2 Member

    Nor should it be in my view...

    They probably could have handled it quite easily by coming up with three levels each of which would have required significant time under direct instruction and with harder and harder evaluations throughout the process.

    1) Successful completion of Gracie combatives course - not authorized to teach but may apply for instructor program after a set amount of time

    2) Apprentice Gracie combatives instructor - authorized to teach under supervision of full instructor

    3) Full Gracie combatives instructor - authorized to teach independently but required to obtain yearly evaluations and retraining/continuing education under head instructors.

    By the time you reach full instructor, you ought to be able to pull off the 36 techniques against pretty much any apprentice instructor out there. Likewise for apprentice instructors versus combative course graduates and course graduates against the average person. That way there could be an objective evaluation of ability to ensure quality control. Had they done most of that, I don't think you would see the outcry that this has sparked in the BJJ world. In my view, it would have handled the ranking situation quite elegantly.

    In most BJJ schools, a Blue Belt is able to teach and may even be allowed to operated a satellite school. This is obviously not that kind of situation.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2009
  16. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    Texas my man...Texas.....
  17. adam t babb

    adam t babb New Member

    if you are going to study BJJ go to a reputable school where you are going to get proper instruction and training partners

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