FMA in the cage

Discussion in 'General' started by The Phalanx, Jun 22, 2009.

  1. Not knocking Tai Chi, any Martial Art or Martial Artist. As long as people are happy doing what they do then more power to them.

    Same can be said of the "Bunkai" (Sp?) of Karate, Kung-fu and some applications of Eskrima I've seen too. And those are just some arts I familar with.

    Whenever patterns are introduced to an art the end product is made more difficult to see (perhaps intentionally in a lot of cases).

    The favourite saying of a former training partner of mine was "Let application be your Sifu" and IMO that's a pretty good maxim to have.
     
  2. The Phalanx

    The Phalanx FMA's Frank Lucas

    I am offend confused on why a lot of the old-school guys rejection of FMA being used in sport fighting... They say it's best to keep FMA at its current form and keep it old-school and not bastardize it... There is nothing wrong with that but I think FMA has come a long way from where it was a while ago...

    Here is my point... A long time ago FMA was only taught to Filipinos and noone else... Then came some of the masters who taught that for FMA to live on it must be taught to outsiders... But I can bet a lot of other masters back then probably hated that idea and I can bet my left pinky that there are a few of Filipinos now who still feel the same... There was one member here who felt that way and voiced it out in this site a couple of times... I forgot his name though and haven't seen him post in a while...

    FMA has evolved from what it was before... It is now taught to all ethnicities and by different ethnicities, not only Filipinos...

    So using FMA in the cage can be another part of that evolution... Some of the old-school guys here might disagree... But I think the question is not if FMA will be used in the cage, it's when it will be used in the cage...

    The time for FMA being used in sport fighting will come... One day there will be a fighter who will use FMA as his main MA for MMA events...

    Like what I said before, combat evolves... That applies in both in real combat and sport fighting...
     
  3. Whilst I think this is a good discussion I personally think you've bitten off more than you can chew on one thread here.

    Combat v Sports & Pinoy v Non-pinoy and the evolution of FMA?

    BTW I think the person you are referring too "The rose in the Jail" or something was a troll and banned on a number of forums...
     
  4. silat1

    silat1 Active Member

    Well, Here I go again with a counter point.. 1st point of view. Old school guys (of which I am one) reject things that have been proven wrong in the past.. It has been indicated that the Dog Brothers had been denied their specialized combat method of the FMA by the UFC originators it's earlier days of presentation.. They basically said that the dog brothers method of combat was too violent for use in the ring.. This proves that the combatives of the Philippines were viewed as too brutal for concept of the UFC.
    My comments are above the lines and my counter point is to the quote in the smaller font separated by the line.
    _______________________________________________________________

    Nuff said


     
  5. Brock

    Brock Asha'man

    You spelled it correctly. Besides my Senkotiros training I'm also a Sandan in both Okinawan karate and kobudo, and I'm a firm believer in Bunkai. I'm also a firm believer that most karate schools teach Bunkai wrong, but enough of my hijacking this thread... Maybe if anyone wants to discuss this I'll start a new thread in the General Martial Arts section.

    As far as seeing FMA in MMA... I could probably pick out moves that are similar to FMA moves in many fights, but how do you define it unless someone pulls a knife in the ring how do you separate it from the other general movements that carry over throughout all martial arts.
     
  6. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    Why would you think the Orientals have the monoploy on Martial??? There are of have been Martial Arts in every country that has had conflict.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  7. I think the word "Martial" stems from the Roman God "Mars" - the God of War, who is also called "Ares" in Greek mythology. "Budo" is likely to be used in the Orient. Or am I mistaken?
     
  8. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    Well being one who is not only well versed in the art, I am of the fortune that I am well versed in the sport and lets say I have a bit of expeariance about combat too.

    Are they different, Absolutley.

    Can they help each other, Of course they can, but they are different beasts.

    When I was in my sporting years (and I call it what it is, sport) my training had to be sports specific otherwise I would have fallen foul of the rules on more than one occasion. You see you fight how you train and it is that simple.

    A top class MMA sportsman/athlete (and that is what he is) will automatically drop into the training he does day in and day out, even when faced with an armed aggressor intent on taking more than his money, will his MMA training help him in a real conflict? Of course it will, but it can also be the down fall of him too for if he drops into what he is used to doing every day (which is likely) he could well find himself in a place he does not want to be.

    Did my sport expeariance help me become a better martial artist. No it did not. Yes it hightend certain attributes of my fighting skills and gave be a better understanding of what can be effective in a limited environment, but it never once helped me become a better martial artist. That is a whole different aspect to my training.

    When I first started I was only interested in one thing and that was hurting people, I was a fighter, not a martial artists, and I used my fighting skills on a daily basis, because I was a not so nice person, did that make me a better martial artist because I knew how to fight for real and took pleasure and pride in hurting people. No it did not.

    Do I know what it is like to make a chioce between severly hurting some one because they are intent on hurting me, Yes I do, but it never made me a better martial artist either.

    Now once I got over my own ego and realised that I could vent my anger in sport, full contact sport of various kinds including, FMA, Muay Thai and Vale Tudo, I moved away from the darker side of my life, did that me me a better martial artists, No but it was setting me on the way to be one only in that I realised I had chioces, I had the chioce not to hurt someone for the simple reason I wanted to, or my environment dictated I should, I could still fight and get a pleasure out of it and be rewarded for my skills as a fighter.

    Now that I retired fromt the sports side of my art, I concentrated more and more on the ART, I realise I can become a better person, I have pride in what I do, I know that not everything I do has a combat application but it can still enhance certain attributes, my attitude to life is different and my attitude to other people is different, I do the art for the love of the art, it is my life and I know the sport was fun, the fighting was at times nessesary but for the most part no a nice thing to do and it is the art that has shown me that I am unique, I am better than I ever thought I could be both as a person and as an ARTIST.

    Can the art live without the sport, Yes it can but the sport can help individuals improve CERTAIN attributes and if done hand in hand with the art can be of benefit to the individual as long as they realise the two are different things. Will combat improve your art and make you better at it, only in that you know what it is like to hurt for real but it wont make you as an individual a better MARTIAL ARTIST. Only you can do that.

    The art can improve you as a person, the sport can improve certain attributes which MAY improve some parts of your art, the Combat lets you know just how precious life really is, all three can make you a better martial artists if you can combine them and use them for what they are, but the art can live without the sport and the sport should be looked upon for what it really is, a bit of fun.

    Now I hear that you can use ellements of the FMA in MMA, well you can use ellements of football in MMA too, but it does not make it football does it and a punch is a punch is a punch, no matter what suger coating mystycal name you tag on to it. You can say this guys is a Krabi Krabong fighter who is winning the next UFC, but he wont use his art to win will he, he will fight by the rules if he wants to win and he will as the sport dicates become an athlete, will it improve certain attributes, yes of course, but it will not improve himself as a martial artist, only he can do that by having a deeper understanding of his art as a whole.

    You can be a fighter without being a Martial Artist, you can be a top class sportsman without being a Martial Artist, you can be a Martial Artists without being a fighter or a sportsman and you can be a Martial Artist who is a fighter and a sportsman but you will know how the 3 are different beasts.

    Ellements of FMA in the cage, yes why not, but it is not FMA.
    Ellements of FMA in the sport, well it's been done in several versions but it is still not FMA all be it related to it. Being related to your mother does not make you your mother.

    There is a difference and I am quite surprised on just how many dont realise the difference.

    Best regards

    Pat
    A martial artist, fighter and sportsman.
     
  9. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    Why are women so sensible?

    You see I was telling my wife about this little debate on here and she said:

    "I dont see why your even having this debate? After all FMA has it's own versions of MMA. Look at the Black Eagle Society, Dog Brothers and other groups like them that are all around the world. Why would you even think of restricting them to a cage?"

    What more can I say?

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  10. selfcritical

    selfcritical New Member

    I don't think they do. That's why I think equating martial arts with the particular notion of spirituality practiced in some martial arts in japan and china is frankly racist. Just because some cultures infuse a particular buddhist or confucian ethos into the culture of learning to fight doesn't mean that other cultures that don't practice that ethos don't have martial arts.
     
  11. selfcritical

    selfcritical New Member

    To put it in a way that I think answers her question.

    "If I have FMA training, as well as some skill in combat sports, why would I NOT seek to test my skills acquired in FMA against people very proficient in a given range of combat? Do my skills only work if I hermetically seal them away from each other?"
     
  12. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    What she is saying and I can agree with her is, we already have our own MMA events where our skills are tested to the max in such a range as well as all the other ranges we play at. In otherwords why limit ourselves to what would amout to a very small portion of our skills when we in fact already pressure test our skills in a far better way.

    If you are only allowed to use 5% of your FMA skills, the it is only a small portion of what you are and not truely representative of what you do is it.

    We already do it, so why do it to a lesser degree? As a matter of fact when Vale Tudo first came out many FMA'ers over here took to it (my wife is also a former British Vale Tudo Champion), but as the rules where added in the interest on official consumption the rules pushed them away from it as it dicated that you became less and less of what you do and more and more a slave to the rules, hence most MMA guys now are looking all the same as the next guy and have become a style all on their own.

    It is no longer about what art you do now, Ju Jitsu, Karate, Thai Boxing, Savate, Kung Fu or even FMA. MMA if we are honest about it now is about being an MMA'er who looks very much like the next MMA'er.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  13. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    What she is saying and I can agree with her is, we already have our own MMA events where our skills are tested to the max in such a range as well as all the other ranges we play at. In otherwords why limit ourselves to what would amout to a very small portion of our skills when we in fact already pressure test our skills in a far better way.

    If you are only allowed to use 5% of your FMA skills, the it is only a small portion of what you are and not truely representative of what you do is it.

    We already do it, so why do it to a lesser degree? As a matter of fact when Vale Tudo first came out many FMA'ers over here took to it (my wife is also a former British Vale Tudo Champion), but as the rules where added in the interest on official consumption the rules pushed them away from it as it dicated that you became less and less of what you do and more and more a slave to the rules, hence most MMA guys now are looking all the same as the next guy and have become a style all on their own.

    It is no longer about what art you do now, Ju Jitsu, Karate, Thai Boxing, Savate, Kung Fu or even FMA. MMA if we are honest about it now is about being an MMA'er who looks very much like the next MMA'er.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  14. WuLord187

    WuLord187 Albo Kali Silat Student

    In MMA and if you ever competed in a MMA event its very difficult to present the pure technical aspect of any single style because of rules, your opponents skill and tactics, and your personal methods/style for winning the fight. In MMA what you can present easily is the fundamentals and basics in the arts you have experience in using against a violent adversary. Also because basic martial arts techniques overlap across styles its hard define what the fighter is using or to say "see that guy is using Southeast Asian style kicks or East Asian style kicks" or "look he is using that west coast style of boxing or that dirty south Roy Jones Jr style of boxing" or "that's a silat elbow or ledrit elbow" or "that's bjj lock or catch catch lock". FMA fundementals and body mechanics are already used in sport MMA even though most fighters don't train exclusively in FMA, if you're good fighter you can identify them.

    Also on a final note most people who train in MA are not fighters, however they know techniques that will protect them doesn't they have the skill or ability to apply it agaisnt someone with combat skills. Being or becoming a fighter takes alot of hardwork, dedicatiion, an unique mindset, and some talent. Every martial art school has people that train in that art and people that know how to truly fight/use that art in any situtation.
     

Share This Page