FMA in the cage

Discussion in 'General' started by The Phalanx, Jun 22, 2009.

  1. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    Tell that to the poor sods who have to go house to house in Afganistan and Iraq, or any other conflict for that matter, no matter how technical and sanitary machines make war look, their comes a time when the ordinary foot soldier will have to go face to face and hand to hand with his enemy, and if you beleive otherwise you need to go do a few tours of duty.

    Why do you think a soldier is still issued with a knife and a bayonete, it aint for opening tins of bully beef you know.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  2. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    YOU are your own last line of defense, your last bastion of hope, if a soldier forgets this he will be in a world of hurt. I have taught more than a few GI's & Marines a stripped down raw version of what I do..they have all told me horrific accounts of the house clearing in quarters so tight you couldn't even swing your barrel around. They related to me how the enemy hides in hollowed walls and pops out of no where. In this setting H 2 H is oh so important....we sleep safe at night because a few double hard young fire starters are willing to lay it on the line.

    What irks me is the fact that the military has gone away from the old school H2H work and opted for a sport which they say builds camaraderie and mental toughness...Horse poop! It is a politically correct bunch of hype. They need to get back to teaching these lads how to use their body in practical combat ways..with knives, empty hands, rifle butts and bayonets ....laying on the ground and working for an arm lock is not my idea of H2H

    When I served the old H2H methods were part of our daily Pt routine..we woyuld run and hit the sand pits and then the last hour and a half would be straight up old school CQB...we got busted up but it was well worth it.
     
  3. Ryno

    Ryno New Member

    FMA will never be seen in the octagon in its pure form. As people have pointed out, you’re not allowed to bring a knife in and start stabbing your opponents. But I do feel that some elements of FMA have already appeared. In addition the sportive (mma) model of pressure testing a system can be very constructive to the FMA stylist. Sure, there are some dangerous techniques and weapons that can’t be used under sportive restrictions, but there are also many that can, and there is no reason not to hone these skills when we can.

    With regards to the too-deadly elements within the art, and their inappropriateness in combative sports competition, obviously in their pure form, this is absolutely correct. You can’t go around chopping opponents’ or training partners heads off. But this is true for any dangerous weaponry. But does this mean that it is impossible to test the more dangerous stuff in a controlled (sportive) manner? Of course you can.

    Infantrymen in militaries all over the world target shoot. This is a sportive application that simulates some aspects of real combat. Artillerymen, fighter, and bomber pilots do the similar training exercises. They do bombing runs on training targets, they mock dog fight, etc. If they are able to safely engage an opponent in training, they will play war games and compete with one another. It’s an effective means of training for combat, even if it isn’t the “real thing”.

    This is exactly what mma style competition does. It sets some general guideline for what competitors can do (kick, punch, grapple, etc.), and it lets them compete and test their skills. To dismiss mma as silly because knives, multiple attackers, etc., can come into play in a real-world self defense situation is ridiculous. If that’s the case, we could carry on that many thugs carry guns making many aspects of stick and knife combat irrelevant. This whole straw man could be played out forever, with someone carrying a bigger gun and wearing a vest, and then this is countered with an armored car, then an Abrams, until we all sit in our houses with our fingers on a big red button. This argument is ridiculous, and is out-and-out bunk.

    The truth is that we all practice some elements of combat which need to be tested as best as we can. Whether this is only kicking and punching and grappling, or weather it is with blunt or bladed weapons, or with firearms, you need to test your skills. Ideally you do this against a resisting opponent. MMA figured this out. Sure there are restrictions, and they can’t do everything. But I guarantee you that those fighters can get very confident in those techniques they are allowed to do, because they’ve done it against someone who wasn’t cooperating.

    As FMA stylists, we’re in a bit of a special niche in combat. We do a little bit of a lot of things, but most of us have some sort of preferred specialty. Some of us are sword fighters. Some specialize in blunt weapons. Others focus on knife, or on boxing. Many work on some combination of several weapons. Obviously many of these things won’t be allowed in a mma match. But does that mean that we shouldn’t try to test ourselves against an opponent? Of course not. If we never sparred, (or used what we know in a real fight) our art would be nothing but theory. It would be untested.

    In this regard, some sort of sportive competition and validation is necessary. It lets us learn. It lets us play. It lets us find which techniques within our systems work best for us. Someone who can test their system even under a somewhat restricted sportive rule set will be a better fighter than someone who has never tested their art and themselves against an opponent.

    Ryan Greene
     
  4. kwentong tarantado

    kwentong tarantado New Member

    LOL! No, he doesn't. In all the time I've known Brandon, he's never brought up FMA.
     
  5. kwentong tarantado

    kwentong tarantado New Member

    I was one of Ron's early students in San Diego. He told us a story about how his brother got into it with the Gracies. He challenged them to a NHB fight with sticks and they backed down. I remember when the UFC first came out. Ron wanted to do something similar. Speedos, sticks, and goggles IIRC.

    We did some full contact stickfighting during that time. I don't know. Those helmets took away from the effectiveness of the sticks. You could take a bunch of head strikes, clinch, and turn it into a grappling match.

    I've trained in MMA gyms for the past few years. Surprisingly, there are very few martial artists in MMA. Most of them are strictly fighters. And that's what you'd get in FMA if it went in that direction. Tapout gear and bad tattoos. LOL
     
  6. The Phalanx

    The Phalanx FMA's Frank Lucas

    Can you please explain to me what the difference is? To me Martial Artists ARE fighters... That's what Martial Arts is, the art of fighting... The art of kicking ass... Fighting is the base of Martial Arts...
     
  7. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    The difference is obvious..MMA guys like to compete they like to fight. You don't have to be a fighter to be a martial artist. There are as many paths as there are practitioners. You may deem martial arts as being a fighter but that is your opinion. What about the 72 year old man who does Tai Chi because he likes it and makes him feel better. Is he not a martial artist as well. He practices a martial art! Everyone has their own reason for engaging in the arts. This also applies to MMA guys...IMHO they work towards being a ring champion, they do not however have the answer for street combat..they rarely if ever work weapons, multiple opponents, firearms etc. those are things found mostly in the street oriented methods. The mma world is chalked full of guys who have nary an ounce of martial in them....there are those rare few that are great martial artists..Machida. Silva..GSP...Alves....Hong Kong Phooey =),,


    To each their own..but to think that all there is to martial arts is kicking ass is like taking a shower with a rain coat..ya get wet but ya won't get clean....my .02 cents
     
  8. Bahad Zubu-Florida

    Bahad Zubu-Florida New Member

    Pat--
    "it aint for opening tins of bully beef you know.".... LOL.


    PG Mike--
    Awesome last reply....
     
  9. selfcritical

    selfcritical New Member

    If he doesn't actually get in and throw people, or at least coach people who are, he's NOT practicing a martial art. He's practicing some movements BASED on the martial art. He's no more actually practicing the martial art of tai chi than someone who does tae bo is doing kickboxing.

    In order to actually be doing martial arts, you have to be doing something with MARTIAL application. There's a reason Mars is referenced in the name of the skillset. I can't see any way of defining a noncombative tai chi player(and to be sure, combative tai chi is alive and well, one only has to look to chen bing or the zhabao taji lineage) as being a martial artist in a way that wouldn't also mean that someone teaching stage combat swordplay as a martial artist.

    I would take that as a reductio ad absurdum of the position.

    Bottom line- if you are not preparing for some form of combat(real or sportive) or coaching someone else to do so, the only reason that your activity might be called "martial arts" is probably Orientalism.
     
  10. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    A fine line don't you think..on one hand you say "if he doesn't throw people or a least coach people who are"then he isn't a martial artist..then you say "he's practicing some movements BASED on the martial art"....hmm isn't that what the former is doing as well? The intent may be different but they are both practicing some movements based on martial arts.

    Disagree...there is far more to the arts than just application. When one constantly thinks of application and gears toward it he or she may miss the intricacies of why. To each their own.


    Your opinion... quidproquo they may think the same of you. I guess it comes down to intent once again and depth of understanding. To simply work toward application is to me a shallow understanding and a one dimensional one at that.


    Combat is real, it is life and death, it has nothing to do with sport...a lot of people who have never tasted it can not distinguish between the two. They also believe that all there is to the arts is combat. For some reason they want it, or they think they do. It falls into the wannabe commando mindset...these types pray for their ultimate martial battle. Sad when you think about it. Walter Mitty is alive and well it seems. As to the orientalist slap...that is nothing new...westerners are enamored buy the orient..especially as it pertains to the martial factions. I have seen it in all systems...The western man who tries to be like his Filipino teacher, tries to mimic him to the tea, in speaking, walking, moving etc...same with all arts and subsequent teacher student relationship. Sad part is, for those who become affixed in this mannerism mimicry is all they will obtain.

    Old PT was right, suckers born.

    I seriously doubt I or any long time martial art practitioners would have dedicated all the years if application was all there is to the arts. It becomes over time a way, our path...it becomes a part of life and it helps build our lives in spectacular ways. It has brought me happiness , peacefulness, and great friends who I consider more family than friends. These are but a few non application merits of martial arts.

    It would be a sad epitaph as we age that we still stay affixed in the application mindset. Time erodes these abilities. I know there is much more..at least for me. And as I see it..for me is what truly matters, the masses have to find their own milieu.

    Perhaps my sorted past has braught me to this more peaceful way of thinking. When one has committed violence and done attrocious things it has a way of shaping him. He knows what he can do and what he has done and what he is willing to do if the crap hits. It leaves one only two choices, you can sit in that same old mire and stroke your violent side or you can become a better person and find peace. The old demons can be summoned when needed but as for me I prefer they stay under wraps.

    As I said, to each their own...the curve has to be a personal one.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2009
  11. selfcritical

    selfcritical New Member

    You seem to not draw a distinction between what the activity consists of and the reasons for doing the activity.

    Martial arts MEANS fighting skill. Those are what the words mean. If you don't have fighting skill, you are not a martial artist. That doesn't mean that the MEANING of practicing fighting skill can't be deeper for an individual practicioner. But fundementally, this is the same for physical activity in general. We sit in the same relation to , for example, baseball or golf.

    If you can't play basketball, you don't have basketball skill. That doesn't mean that individual players can't derive deeper meaning or fufillment from it. Their fufillment is not a prerequisite of basketball skill. Being able to play basketball is. In this sense martial arts is exactly like any demanding physical activity.

    It is not special. It is an intense activity that involves heavily goal-oriented activity and a lot of effort. I truly don't believe there's anything in terms of self-development that you develop by doing mock-fighting movements that you can't get from climbing rocks, for example.

    Associating martial skill with the development of zen or buddhist style spirituality rather than with the development of combative ability seems......well frankly kind of racist. Apparently thousands of years of african and european fighting experts weren't "real martial artists" in this case.

    The only thing I can think of of is liking martial arts to rites of passage in manhood initiation.......but even using it as that requires that it's about acquiring proficiency in either real or ritual combat.
     
  12. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    It seems we are as far apart on this subject as Mars is to Mexico..to each their own. I will remain to see it my way, and you yours..no problem, hence the path, we all have our own and during the travel on our paths our circumstances drive us to our own beliefs...not necessarily right for others but only right for ourselves. Therein lies the beauty of the arts...we can agree to disagree.

    I don't understand the racist element you see, but hey that's on you..LOL

    as to the western , European, African also had their superlatives when it came to fighting arts and the spiritual or religious or any other realm of that ilk, Templar's, Hospitallers, conquistadors, zulu's etc etc.

    "The arts while devised for self preservation also bring other elements unknown to the layman, only when time has passed and understanding begins will they see this" ~ Mikael Khalid Ibn Blahgrav

    Have an excellent 4th...a pleasure debating you...

    peace
     
  13. kwentong tarantado

    kwentong tarantado New Member

    From Dave Camarillo. Black belt in Judo and BJJ. Trainer of MMA fighters. IIRC, he's fought MMA before.

    Fighter vs. Martial Artist


    THE MARTIAL ARTIST
    I have a long history in Martial Arts. And even so it has taken many years to finally realize what a Martial Artist is. Some things in life take years to define. Some ideas elude us because we are not looking for the answer. And sometimes you need to step outside of yourself to see the true meaning in what you are doing. For me I realized what a Martial Artists is just recently.



    MARTIAL ARTIST:Is a person that values respect, honor, and determination. And uses these values as a framework to learn and teach self-defense while positively influencing others.


    You can write a 100-page paper on what it means to be a Martial Artist. There are so many great examples in history. So many great experiences accrued through MA training. In my lifetime I have had the privilege of learning from some of the best. I have talked to people like Flavio Canto and Marcelo Garcia. And it took me a while to understand why, after those experiences, my life changed and I became a better person because of it.
    And then it hit me.


    There seems to be a primal urge for humans to want to fight. In a sense we are animals. In Another sense we are intelligent animals. We build social norms in society to quiet our beastly ambitions. So there is a conflict. It is an internal one. On one hand we applaud violence, and on the other we respect civilization. So with this comes my epiphany.


    Using Marcelo Garcia as an example: He represents both sides of the coin. His ability to use a fighting system to excel in competition satisfies one part of our intellect. And his incredibly humble nature satisfies another. And that is why he can positively influence so many.


    Now go back and read my definition of a martial Artist. Marcelo fits the mold perfectly.


    THE FIGHTER
    With my experiences I have also been privileged enough to meet and train with many fighters. And in my career as an MMA trainer I have come to realize my definition of the quintessential fighter.


    FIGHTER: Is a Person that fights for a living. They respect the fight to a high degree.


    The main difference between the two is at times the fighter forgets to display a high degree of honor and respect. They also forget that the path to learning lies in these values.


    A simple conclusion you can derive from this is that the Martial Artist who fights has a better chance of, not only reaching their full potential, but also positively influencing others to a high degree.


    -Reaching Full Potential: Respect and honor drives the Martial Artist to never stop learning and listen to trainers and fellow students.
    -Influencing others: When a Martial Artist speaks, they greatly represent themselves, their school and the art.


    There are many great examples of Martial Artists who also happen to be fighters. Among them are some of the greatest influences in my life. Kenny Florian, Jon Fitch, GSP, Anderson Silva.


    For those who understand what it means to be a Martial Artist, I bow, For those who are fighters and strive to be a Martial Artist, I bow, for those who understand the importance of Martial Artists’ influence in MMA, I bow. And for those who applaud the fact that a Martial Artist defeated a fighter in the Light Heavy Weight Division last Saturday, I bow.


    I don’t believe Lyoto’s UFC title was a great accomplishment for Machida as much as it was a great accomplishment for the Ultimate Fighting Championships, its fans and fellow Martial Artists!


    It is truly the Machida Era of MMA. It is truly the era of The Martial Artist! And I bow!
     
  14. The Phalanx

    The Phalanx FMA's Frank Lucas

    I think people definitions of Martial Artists and Fighter are mixed up... Your guys definition of a Fighter is more of an athlete...

    To me, a Martial Artist is also a fighter... Fighting is the base of all MA after all... An athlete fights/plays for money...
     
  15. kwentong tarantado

    kwentong tarantado New Member

    I like that distinction. An athlete or a competitor. But there are also guys who like to fight just for the sake of fighting. They like the action. They like being tough. They can't control their emotions. No code of honor.

    For me, fighting skill + code of honor = martial artist.
     
  16. silat1

    silat1 Active Member

    If you really want to get down and dirty on your definition. In most martial cultures a martial arts practitioner is also a scholar or cultured man.. Not everything he does relates to fighting..

    In the Chinese arts that I have studied, the salutation of one closed fist placed in the open hand was to indicate both a fighter and a scholar..

    In Japan, a lot of the martial artists were also individuals who practiced different forms of arts of culture, such as tea ceremony, flower arranging along with painting and writing poetry.. They were constituted as being fighters also.

    The Filipino arts have several influences in the origins of their martial culture.. It was common for them to take what was effective or what they saw worked and played with it in order to make the applications work for them.. Not everything was fighting, a lot of research and trial and error went into determining what made a valid fighting art..

    Hell, if you look at it, even some of the combative systems of the Philippines was hidden in dance to train people under the very eye of their occupiers.. Look at the sayaws of Mindanao and else where, you will find martial aspects in those dances if you really know what to look for..

    Look at Jose Rizal and his martial studies, he was a learned man who had the ability to study various fencing arts while in spain and europe.. Yet he was the father of Filipino Independence. Was he not also classified as a fighter even though he died in front of a firing squad?

    Read the history of the Philippines and maybe you will find that there is more to the Filipino combative arts besides the swinging of a stick or the slash of a blade that makes the system and the practitioners effective with out even having to step into a ring or caged in dog kennel to prove it being effective..

    The martial arts of the Philippines is what the individual practitioner who practices a specific system that he likes what it is.. If it works for him on the street once or twice when the chips are down and he is protecting himself or his loved ones, he is classified a fighter and protector, yet he can also be a cultured individual who uses what he knows for the purpose at hand.. And he does/did this without having to step into the ring..

    The whole name of the game is survival, not sports, IMHO. But if the shoe fits and you would rather be an individual who likes getting sweaty and fighting in shorts or spandex with an audience and lights, hey all the more power to you.. I work in a don't ask, don't tell environment, so it makes no difference to me which way you swing..

    Personally, I believe in using what works when it is needed, not prostituting myself for egotistical purposes or the almighty dollar.


     
  17. So Olympians are not athletes?

    So all Tai Chi players can fight / are not "Martial" artists?
     
  18. selfcritical

    selfcritical New Member

    Your definition of athlete excludes most collegiate and olympic sports players, as well as tribal/folk participants.
     
  19. Brock

    Brock Asha'man

    Yes, it's just that many don't understand that they've acquired the skills to fight with their training.
     
  20. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    This debate can go on and on with diverse individuals all having a difference of opinion. We all don't agree but if we dig deep enough I think we are all in the same ball park...in one form or another. I think it comes down to what you consider you, and you alone. Outside of that it truly doesn't matter.

    It will all come out in the wash one way or the other...just need the right domino to fall the wrong way and you will either be a goat or a hero...not a dog fall by any means.
     

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