FMA in the cage

Discussion in 'General' started by The Phalanx, Jun 22, 2009.

  1. Ryno

    Ryno New Member

    As a long time fma practitioner and long time mma fan, I've seen many fma-style movements become adopted by mma fighters. Dirty boxing? There wasn't much of it in early UFCs, but now it's quite common. Randy Couture obviously took this style of fighting to new heights in the ring, and although he may not be trained in FMA, it is an approach that most FMA stylists are very familiar with and utilize. Close range hooks, bolo punches, and uppercuts out of the clinch are hallmarks of Filipino boxing.

    Same for the conscious and tactical use of short elbows. Early on, only big Muay-Thai style swinging elbows were prevalent. Very few people used elbows out of the clinch or from a variety of angles while on the ground. It was either a big, commited horizontal elbow while standing, or a downward elbow spike on the ground. Nowdays, short chopping elbows to the ribs are common while grappling, whereas a few years back this was almost never seen.

    Is it FMA influence on a few fighters letting these tactics seep into the octagon? Or is it just that they are combatively valid, and mma fighters are just figuring out these tricks that most FMA stylists take for granted? Who knows, but they look like FMA tactics to me.
     
  2. The Phalanx

    The Phalanx FMA's Frank Lucas

    You know the answer to that already and it's not the UFC's fault...

    You really think that the gov't would have let the UFC open for business if they had people beating each other with sticks on TV? The UFC was already in hot water back then...

    You think the UFC will take a chance with that? They would not exist and MMA would not even be as big as it is now or would have not have existed at all if the gov't shut them down...

    It's about money and business... And to have accepted the Dog Brothers would have shut them down... Especially when they were already receiving pressure from the public, media, and the gov't...
     
  3. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    And because they bowed to the pressure, the UFC is no longer what it was originally intended to be, all it is now is a full contact version of WWF.

    But the organisers are only in it for one reason and it is not the fighters of the martial arts, its all about the money.

    But then you also have to ask yourself this, would the Dog Brothers be the same if they where accepted or would they have had to bow to pressure too in the interest of the money making organisers. Then what would they have become??? I suspect they would have ended up as puppies and not Dogs. So maybe it was not a bad thing in the end.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  4. The Phalanx

    The Phalanx FMA's Frank Lucas

    Full-contact version of the WWE? You're making it sound like these fighters are a bunch of no-skilled brawlers... UFC fighters are a great specimen of an athlete and a fighter... They have such great skills in their arts as well as the conditioning to match... A far cry from your usual Jane and Joe who goes to an MA studio 2x a week for 2 hours at a time...

    It's always about money... That's what a business is... There's nothing wrong with that... If the UFC could make money on having 2 midget transexulas fight with pink tutus on they would...

    If the Dog Brothers were accepted in the early days of the UFC, then there would be no UFC now... The general public and media would be so shocked about the type of fighting they do that the gov't would step-in and have it shut down...

    The UFC would not be in existence right now if it wasn't for Dana White and what he did to it that made the public accept the UFC as a legitimate sport... Far from the days of low-blows and almost no rules fighting of the early days of the UFC...

    It wasn't just about the money for the UFC that they made up rules and regulations but it was also about the survival of the company itself...
     
  5. silat1

    silat1 Active Member

    Read your own words.. You state that the UFC is now a sport.. The FMA wasn't developed as sports oriented.. It was developed as a means of survival for the indigenous tribes of the Philippines..

    It has proven itself over the last few centuries and still continues to do so daily.. There are US military personnel who formed groups who practice the FMA while deployed in the current combat zones.. Can this be said about the UFC or MMA groups?

    There might be a few people who practice this in the sand box currently,but you will find more people who are teaching it in the desert and with these individuals, you get more exposure to the warrior arts of the Philippines..

    Think of it like a pebble being thrown in the water, it starts out as a small ripple, but as the ripple goes away from the center, it gets larger and larger.. This is the reality of the Warrior arts of the Philippines, it has combative aspects and can be utilized in real world applications.. You can maintain your combat gear and still defend yourself while concentrating on the mission at hand..

    With the ground and pound aspects that are a major calling of the UFC/MMA practitioners, you can't really go to the ground with a ruck and still maintain your combat effectiveness..

    What good is money when you are dead? Paying off your funeral after dropping your weapon and going to the ground while facing 3 or more people who are intent on taking your life or having a blade/entrenching tool/or machete and standing to take the fight to them? Personally, I would rather go home and spend time with my family instead of having them come and visit me at my grave.. But this is my own opinion, take it for what it's worth.

    Take it from the experiences and individual quotes of some of the forumites who use it or have used it while in the environment described above. Then compare the results and form your own opinion. I form my opinion from past experiences in real life and facing the examples referred to in my posts..


     
  6. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    ahh the age old argument once again....the tete measuring discussion..LOL...all I know is this...I was in the army..I was humping anywhere from 60-85 pounds of gear when deployed....not to mention if they shoved the prk 77 on my fat butt. I can't imagine doing anything like BJJ or MMA to be my go to empty hand base. WE learned old time CQB..and if it wasn't that we would hook up with guys who new some stuff..I had a little Filipino bud in the 74th USAFAD who was an arnis and kajukenbo guy from Honolulu..this cat was a bad mofo and my first exposure to the fma and Hawaiian arts...he showed me how to be effective with that gear on. Having seen my fair share of world events...sand boxes, crazy coups and a few gate crashes (REd Brigade 85)..I an tell ya, when the shite hits the proverbial fan you better not be rolling on your back or even thinking of the ground unless your diving behind something for cover...u land on your back with a heavy ass ruck and you might as well call yourself a damn turtle. Looking for an arm lock or a kimura with some dumb butt looking to skewer you with a shiv is ludicrous at best. That damn KBar will do the job a lot better. Adapt , Overcome and Improvise...laying around and playing bjj or trading shots is none of the former. MY 2 cents.

    MMA is a good sport and BJJ is a ncie art but for military use I just don't get it....
     
  7. The Phalanx

    The Phalanx FMA's Frank Lucas

    We all know that FMA was born out of warfare... But that is not the point I'm making here... My point is that why not use FMA in the cage? At least the empty-hand aspects of it... There are a lot of elements in FMA that can be used in the cage... Not everything is always about breaking necks and legs...

    It has nothing to do about FMA being credible, it already is... But if one is successful in using FMA in MMA fights/UFC fights it would generate more interest in FMA... The same thing it did for BJJ; which is why the Gracies had a great part in contributing in the UFC in the beginning... And look at how many people are interested in BJJ now... The same thing can happen for FMA...

    I don't see why so many people object to this...
     
  8. bluesbassist

    bluesbassist New Member

    I think to a certain extent it is. Many boxers have been influenced by FMA including Mohamed Ali. So by extrapolation as boxing has influenced MMA then there is an FMA influence in the cage. I see this particularly in the use of angular footwork.
     
  9. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    It may also generate a wrong idea about FMA ..that it is a sport...some will think that what they then see is FMA and never truly understand what these arts are all about. It can be a double edged sword to be sure.

    ...
    It can but to be honest I hope FMA doesn't go down that route..to me it is not the way I want it represented.

    because I am old school and set in my ways...hell I can count the amount of mma matches I ever viewed on one hand...it just don't jump start my interest.
     
  10. gagimilo

    gagimilo Member

    I am a little bit ambiguous on this issue...promotion I mean. Namely, this sort of televised event would depend heavily on the expertise of a producer and director, and when I sad expertise, I mean in the FMA.
    Maybe a separate event would be more convenient (hell, guro Crafty was advertising something like that even in this forum), but still very dependent on the quality of presented fighters, coaches and other people involved.
    Also, I wonder if the FMA really do need any more promotion and exposure in USA. There places around (hell, my country included) where it would definitely be welcome to have some way of making people more aware of FMA, but I am not sure if the TV people would have enough integrity to offer it as it should be done, instead of making it some sensationalistic affair.
    Finally, back to the original question - why isn;t there more FMA in the already existing format of MMA? Well, the way I see it, if people would start emphasizing those particular aspects to the extent needed to apply those specific techniques in that particular environment, than they would have been forced to neglect all those things that actually FMA what it is. In other words, we would have inthe end just another shool of MMA, only with a little bit different flavor. Now, it begets another question - do we really want to have widely popular FMA, where people would have no interest in weapon training, but simply for the empty handed stuff along the continuum of standup/clinch/ground?

    Hell, for that I go to already existing MMA gyms...
     
  11. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    GAGIMILO excellent post. My major gripe would be the exclusion of the weaponry and the trickle down effect that would have on what someone would see in a match. We all know that FMA is a weapons first way..it is taught that way for a reason...WEAPONS to empty hands is a logical transfer....EMPTY HANDS to weaponry is not. I truly believe that if FMA goes into the sport realm (especially of this nature) what you will see may not be good fma...rather, a modicum of movement deemed fma but never truly understood. This then would be what laypersons would then think fma is. Outside of a few top notch MMA guys who are highly skilled their throngs are more a bit of this and a tad of that which then makes up their skill sets....and from what I have seen ( only a bit of mma) a lot of these cage fighters are not very adept at their sport. I cringe at what I have seen in the cage, ring etc. by the vast majority of these people. The Anderson Silvas....GSP's.....Thiago Alves etc are great fighters but they are few and far, far between.
     
  12. Loved an Anderson Silva training routine I saw the other day.

    He was interviewed by a lovely young lady down in Brazil and she followed him around a bit. Seemed a great guy.

    Anyway, he's developed this training routine where his trainer stands about 10 ft away and throws a small squash ball (or likeness) and him and he bobs and weaves around it throwing punches. Will have to try that one day.

    He's fighting soon isn't he? Next week along with Brock v Mir rematch?
     
  13. bluesbassist

    bluesbassist New Member

    Excellent point. We've all seen the truly horrible boxing skills exhibited by most cage fighters (hands down, chins up, heads exposed). I have no doubt that this type of sloppy execution would also happen to FMA in the cage. I'm already disgusted by what passes for boxing in the cage, I don't want to see that happen to FMA.
     
  14. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Yes, when I studied Karate it was a big difference--"Today we are doing weapons!"--and despite all the lip service paid to "the weapon is an extension of the hand" it was always clear that this was an add-on. With FMA it's not just the weapons-first attitude but the continuum attitude: I use the best and most appropriate weapons I have available. If that weapon is a sword, great; a knife, fine; my body, OK. The "it's all the same" perspective that Remy Presas always espoused really drives home the notion that you're learning body motion more than learning a particular weapon--whereas when I studied Isshin-ryu, when you did the sai you were doing the sai, and that was that. There was minimal connection to anything else.
     
  15. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    Actually no I am not, maybe your just thinking that in the back of your mind. I was involved in the early years of Vale Tudo over here and still involved when they started to bring in the rules, there are so many does and donts nowadays that it has lost all it's flavour and is exactly that, a full contact version of WWF.

    Yes they are great athletes and SPORTSMEN but then again look at the WWF players, they are even greater althletes and sportsmen, how many MMA guys do you know who can pull off a full high rise pile driver with complete control in order that they DONT break the other guys neck. Just because they pull their shots for the camera and the audiance shows their great ability to do a technique that if dont for real would all too often take the guy out of the game completely.

    MMA is a sport and because of the rules restricting what they can and cant do it is no longer an ultimate fighting challenge, it is a sport for the masses who have no real interest in martial arts and it is getting closer and closer to events such as WWF and further and further away from what it was originally intended to be, an ultimate challenge of martial artists from various styles pitting their chose skills up against each other. No offence here but as far as I am concerend they all look the same now.

    Exactly and it is the money that guides the rules and it's changes over the years, it is not about the fighter and their skills, it is no longer about the different martial arts, you could have Joe Bloggs come out and the comentator will say he has a Karate back ground with some boxing and wrestling and Jimmy two shoes mug face is a Kung Fu practioner with a TKD background and guess what, both will look the same anyway.

    I very seldom watch it now and when I do, like the others have said here I am amazed at just how bad some of the skills are that they are suppose to have, like Boxing and Muay Thai, having done both and trained fighters for the early Vale Tudo events, all FMA'ers by the way all I can say is, if they concentrated a bit more on some of those skills then maybe we would see less, lets shoot in, go for the armbar or ground and pound or guard or side mount. It is a full contact wrestling match with a few punches, knees, kicks and elbows for good measure and they fact that they actually hit each other hard is the only thing that seperates them from the more skillfull and more controlled WWF athletes.

    If the Dog Brothers where accepted in the early days, because of the driving force behind the UFC, MONEY, they too would have had to bend to the rules or they would have to leave and like I said, if they did they would no longer be who they are.

    Yes the general public have accepted the UFC in the same way they have accepted WWF, but the martial arts world is more and more moving away from it, simply because it is no longer about the martial arts and fighter anymore, it is about the Audiance and the money. Yes their are some great fighters in the ranks but even they know, it is no longer about them and what martial arts they practice, they too have to go with the rules which forces them to start to look the same as everyone else.

    double negative here I am affraid, the survival of the company (and there is the key word) is all about the money and not about the fighter, unless of course he can put butts on seats.

    It would be impossible to use the FMA empty hands and grappling skills in UFC as most of the techniques used in these areas are already deemed ilegal in UFC and they would have to do as all the other have done, become clones to the rules. They dont call the FMA empty hands 'Dirty Boxing' for nothing you know.

    And because FMA is a weapons first MA, very few FMA'ers are willing to roll around the floor looking for a tap out, if they end up on the floor their are two priorities that will take place, you either get your ass back up as quick as possible as the other guy may well have a knife and we know the last place you want to be when the other guy has a knife is rolling around on the deck cuddling him, or you look for your knife to stick him as after all he is now at the perfect range to take him out of the game.

    Dont bring a grappler to a knife fight, the grapplier will loose. And it is for that reason that real FMA would not work or be anything like FMA in UFC.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  16. R. Mike Snow

    R. Mike Snow Chiseled Edge

    Wow, If you keep hitting the nail on the head with posts like that, there will be little left to talk about. That is the best descriptions traditional FMA mindset I have ever heard.
     
  17. R. Mike Snow

    R. Mike Snow Chiseled Edge

    I agree with you 99% Pat. I think that it is important that we cross-train or more importantly compete in other competitions to help us keep up our practice and hone our skills. When I was a kid, I watched a golden gloves boxer knock out a guy with a knife at the world famous Fountainet Bean Dinner, so we are not invincible for sure. I have also witnessed people shooting in like lightnig to take down a guy with a tonfa and one with a Jo. They both hit the pavement so hard that they were finished off immediately. So I just cannot say that the strikers and grapplers don't stand a chance. They remind me to train to fight against the fast shooter and striker as well as the guy that trains every day to pich people's heads off. GT Nene pushes his long time students to work on Dumog for both sport and combat skills. Since you have already stated that getting on your feet is of the utmost imortance you know exactly what I mean. So we grapple a lot with other style to hone our escape skills. GT loves to watch UFC from time to time, but I have to admit he gets upset when the guy on the bottom refuses to parry the puches he is being pulverized with. When I first started doing Dumog, I used to get chewed out for doing a great grappling technique that were not blade oriented. You are right that most people do not want to get in the dirt, so I think that competing with people that train and compete in grappling systems is a necessity. I do not have many people around here that are proficient enough with knife movement to practice a whole lot of Dumog. So the Judo, Folk Wrestling and BJJ practitioners keep me "grounded" so to speak.

    God Bless, Mike
     
  18. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    Absolutley, It is a skill that is needed even if just to prevent it from happening to you. If you dont understand grappling it can catch you unawares.. I too train with a lot of grapplers, and I aint have bad at it myself. But if you know your grappling and your weapons too, then the person who relies soley on his grappling is not as advantaged as he thinks he may be.

    Like anything, you cant rely soley on one skill set to save your backside, you need a whole heep of skills sets to cover the situation as it changes.

    Knowledge is power and lack of knowledge can be your undoing.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  19. The Phalanx

    The Phalanx FMA's Frank Lucas

    An MMA/UFC fighter does not always fall into the category of "sport" all the time... Just because they train for a sport does not mean that sport is the only thing they know...

    And also, there is nothing wrong with sport fighting... If you look at history, sport fighting has been used as a means to sharpen ones skills for true combat warfare without killing your partner... Historically speaking, sport can be used for real combat...

    Also when someone says an MMA fighter's Boxing, Muay Thai, or any other art's technique looks sloppy, there is a reason for that most of the time... First of all, it's a fight, not a studio... Your techniques gets sloppy at times when you have another opponent also wanting to hurt you, it's not a perfect world... Second, it's a game of strategy, you won't always have to give a 100% full-force kick or jab everytime... A lot of times if you do go 100% and miss, your opponent can take advantage of that and use it against you... The fighters adapt to the situation...

    Another thing... Sport fighting, well Muay Thai derived from Krabi Krabong and is basically the empty-hand aspect of KK...

    So yes, sport fighting is a good thing for Martial Arts... It keeps people interested and it shows to a degree how real Martial Arts can get... I don't know why most of you disagree... Just because they're not spilling their guts out does not make the fighters any less of a Martial Artist... Not everyone is a cop, soldier, or whatever, and use the FMA to kill your enemy... Most study FMA just for fun and/or to learn how to defend themselves... And how many of us will really have to kill someone with our FMA skills? Like what I said, we're not Black Ops or Special Forces... Most of us will never even use our skills in an actual situation in our lifetime... So MMA does gives us somekind of glimpse of the reality of it... And with modern warfare the way it is now, H2H combat skills is not the primary focus anymore compared to the days of the Spartans and Persians... Hell, we even have drones to do the bombings for us now...

    If you feel so negatively about MMA, then how about those FMA tourneys a lot of you are very big proponents about? Isn't that a sport as well? With rules and regulations... Such as no thrusting, no knee shots, no hits to the back of the head... You see more blood in an MMA match than you do in an entire FMA tourney...
     
  20. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Brit with a stick

    I never said that, a good sportsman can also be a good fighter, a world class boxer would not stick to the Queensbury rules if in a brawl on the street now would he?

    Never said that either. I think your jumping to assumptions in that we hate sport. Sport is a good way of honing certain attributes that will come come in handy in a real life situation.

    And the other reason for it is they just have sloppy techniques. Being a sport fighter for many years myself, Boxing, Muay Thai, FMA and then some, yes your technique can look sloppy in the beggining, but as you gain more expeariance your technique should get better and sharper with expeariance. No offence here but for people who are suppose to be at the top of their feild in UFC (proffessional fighters) a large majority of them still have sloppy techniques, maybe they feel because of the rules imposed on them their is no need to improve those skills?

    And Boxing is a small section of English MA that also used to teach weapons first and empty hand last. But I dont see your point as MMA, Boxing and Muay Thai now have very little to do with weapons combat.

    I never said it wasnt, but to say sport fighting shows just how real it can get is not really true is it, how many real fights do you know are fought in a cage, with rules, one on one, it is not as sanitary as that.

    You dont have to be Black Opps or anything like that, you said it yourself, you may have to defend yourself using your skills and in that you may have to go above and behond, and yes some people do it for fun, but that is not the discussion here is it, it is why dont we see more FMA in the cage and that is what we are trying to explain, but maybe your missing the whole point of the discussion?

    I personally do the FMA for two reasons now, the first was my main priority, to help build my skills in the realities of fighting for real, I am not proud of the fact that when I was younger I was invloved with gangs and weapons where common place and an everyday occurance in my life and the FMA in the beggining suited my needs, I will quite happily tell you the reason I orriginally took up FMA was simply to hurt people, But the second reason is as I get older and more appreaciative of the skills it has to offer is, I actually enjoy doing the art side to it too. I enjoyed doing the sport for gd knows how many years and I was dam good at it, but I never once had my head up my ass and beleived for one minute it had anything to do with reality, I recognised it for what it is, a sport and a bit of fun. That and I always enjoy a good scrap, especially if the other guy is a good scrapper too.

    As has been said, nothing against sport at all and beleive me I will be the first to admit that the sporting versions of FMA are not the FMA, they are but 1% of the bigger picture, a tool to train certain attributes and skills but lets not kid ourselves here, the sport versions, be they WEKAF, Padded Stick, Dog Brothers, Black Eagle Society (of which I am the head) are but a small peice of a bigger puzzle and they are fought with a certain degree of safety in mind one on one. Not the art and certainly not the real thing, a sport version of the art.

    So why dont we see more FMA in the MMA, simple, because the rules dictate that it would no longer be FMA and they would have to become a clone to the rules. How many MMA bouts do you see where one guy is pulling out a knife and saying 'Go on, grapple me'? How many MMA organisers would allow you to gouge the eyes, rip the grion, head butt, stamp on his head, break his joints, not many I gather and that takes away a very large portion of the empty hands of FMA too. These sort of techniques are the bread and butter of FMA, take them away and it is not FMA is it?

    And if you beleive that MMA is the answer to all your prayers then I am affraid you may be in for a big shock one day. Nothing is the answer to all your prayers, you need to gain knowledge from every possible avenue and not restrict yourself or be blinkered in your approach to the fighting arts.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2009

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