FMA boxing and western boxing...

Discussion in 'General' started by KrissOfSweden, Dec 15, 2005.

  1. KrissOfSweden

    KrissOfSweden Member

    I was wondering if the fma boxing had influnece western boxing and the other way around? And if so, how and why?

    ...

    Take Care
     
  2. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Member

    The only thing I can think of along these lines is the story of Ted Lucaylucay's father Lucky. He was a champion boxer and eskrimador if I remember correctly. There were some articles during the 90s on the influence of FMA on modern boxing. (Not the other way around.)

    Ted Lucaylucay, just in case, was (RIP) an FMA practitioner from Dan Inosanto's camp.


    Stuart
     
  3. JPR

    JPR New Member

    Guro Inosanto often talks about Panatukan's influence on western boxing. It occured during the GI's stay in the PI.

    I don't have any references / written material. Maybe some of the other Inosanto people have those...

    Jerry
     
  4. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    The story in the U.S. FMA community was that FMA had an influence on Western boxing. I don't believe that to be true. Panantukan is not even recgonized as the so-called Filipino boxing in the PI. Suntukan meaning to strike/hit is more common and in terms of boxing, it is referred to as what else, boxing. Pananjakman (kicking art) is also unheard of as Sipa is to kick while Sikaran is a form of foot fighting. Boxing has always been a very admired sport in the Filipino culture and was more widely practiced than Arnis,Kali & Eskrima. I am pretty confident that if you were to ask any trainers/boxers from the Flashe Elorde (one of the most famous Pinoy boxers) era, they would not know anything about a particular FMA Boxing, just boxing.

    John J
     
  5. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Member

    That's my sense of things too. That terms like panantukan, mano mano, filipino boxing, and so on don't represent specific practices. I think they're more like an acknowledgement that empty hand tactics have to be addressed. And various groups address those needs in various characteristic ways. Some of those ways may be more influenced by boxing than others.


    Stuart
     
  6. KrissOfSweden

    KrissOfSweden Member

    I was told that because of the FMA boxing methods forced the western boxing became lot of tighter after there visit under ww2 ... i am not sure if the time period is right... that's why i am curious if there are any influence from the fma boxing and the western boxing...
     
  7. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Member

    Who was the source? Not that I'm trying to discredit them. But it may help explain any attributions they make.

    I guess I've gotten pretty cynical somewhere along the line. But it's hard for me to imagine that encounters with Filipino boxers would have filtered all the way through the western boxing world.

    Having said that, though, it really only takes one man to make a big change. Muhammed Ali would have held that sort of influence. So if someone influenced him, then perhaps...

    (I'm not saying that Ali is the link. Just suggesting the type of stature we're talking about here.)


    Stuart
     
  8. Sheldon Bedell

    Sheldon Bedell New Member

    I just don't see boxers bloclikg the way I see blocks done in most FMA
     
  9. KrissOfSweden

    KrissOfSweden Member

    I am so sorry that i don't remember the name of the guy who told me, but know it was someone with great experinse so that was why i started to think and then asked... :)

    I have been mailing some outstanding Guros with the same qeustion, hopeing that they will give me some answers. Then i will get back to this subject... :)

    Can ask bit offtopic what your background are? I am just curious by nature, are you a modern arnis player or do you train something else? It's just fun to get to know all the people here on the forum a little extra.. :) I hope it's oki...
     
  10. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise Senior Member Supporting Member

    I seem to recall that these claims started around the same
    time that the various filipino names for boxing started to be
    bandied about. I do not know if filipino boxing influenced
    western boxing or not. My thought would be initially, no!
    However, there is always the off chance that it did, but I
    think it would be pretty hard to find the documentation to
    prove it. I tend to think that some FMA practitioners just
    wanted to get some credibility for their empty hands and
    thought that associating with boxing would help. Credibility
    that they did not need, I might ad! I am certainly
    interested in what other people might be able to dig up
    or in specific references a teacher might have made.

    Brian R. VanCise
    www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com
     
  11. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman FMA Talk Founder Supporting Member

    The late Teddy Lucaylucay wrote articles about the filipino influences on boxing. I will look for a copy of the articles.:bow:
     
  12. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    I guess maybe we need clarification...

    Are we talkin about the Panantukan Filipino Boxing made famous by the JKD community, Filipino Boxers in general or Eskrima influencing Western boxing? I recall the article but didn't it talk about a Filipino boxer (possibly Elorde) being influenced by eskrima?

    JohnJ
     
  13. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Member

    It's cool. I was mostly just curious.

    There's a lot of discussion of Filipino boxing. And certainly, there are people who know more about it than me. But to my understanding, it's more of an empty hand application of some knife concepts to boxing. Hitting the bicep or wrist with your knuckles to simulate cutting with the knife, etc.

    By all means do. It's a favourite of mine too.

    Modern arnis player? Hmm... I suppose so yeah. I've been training with a Modern arnis group for about 8 months now. But most of my FMA background (about 6 years) is in Doce Pares. And another 5 or so years in Inosanto Kali. So I'm a mutt. I don't really consider myself a Modern Arnis player, even though I train regularly with a Modern Arnis group.

    I also have a background in taekwondo, JKD, kickboxing, and fencing. As I said, I'm a mutt.


    Stuart
     
  14. KrissOfSweden

    KrissOfSweden Member

    That would be awesome if you could Sir.. .:)
     
  15. KrissOfSweden

    KrissOfSweden Member

    I am talking about the philippino boxing... But the panantukan is fma boxing to? or are incoprated fma boxing principals or am i wrong?
     
  16. KrissOfSweden

    KrissOfSweden Member

    Oh that's cool, then you have been training for some time now...excuse but i really don't understand what you mean by you are a mutt...:D
     
  17. KrissOfSweden

    KrissOfSweden Member

    This is the reply that i got from a Mr Steve Grody
    _________________________________________

    Kriss,
    Ted Lucay Lucay wrote an Inside Kung Fu article about this, try to find
    it. In a nutshell, according to Inosanto, boxing originally looked the
    way you see in pics of Jack Johnson. But when the Navy had much contact
    with the Filipinos, they were influenced by their hand position and
    foot work (Ali was admittedly influenced by Flash Elordes) which is why
    the Navy always won the boxing competitions among the armed forces.
    That in turn influenced boxing in general.
     
  18. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    Stuart


    Yes, as described by the late Ted Lucaylucay. Those were some of the principles of the so-called Filipino boxing coined Panantukan. Sectoring, checking and monitoring were also included. It is clear to say that Panantukan did not have any influence as these tactics could probably do more harm than good for a boxer. Even footwork would be hard to fathom as sectoring requires basic triangles. Switching leads are relatively a no,no for any boxer.

    The “hitting the bicep” or better yet execution of, is commonly known as guntings or destructions in JKD concepts. This is a perfect example of uses in Filipino terminology aside from the literal translation. Gunting or better yet ginunting means scissors. So in essence, the opposite motions create a scissoring like motion i.e. diagonal, vertical, outside guntings. Sadly, I have heard numerous practitioners say gunting means destruction.

    Speaking of Ginunting, does anyone know why Pekiti Tirsia’s sword of choice is called a ginunting? If you take 2 of them and put one on top of the other it looks like a very large pair of scissors because of the design / arc.

    Kriss


    I don’t think there is an actual Filipino “style” of boxing. I believe Panantukan was a JKD concepts development of empty-hand methods which incorporated boxing.

    Kris


    This statement brings clarity now. We are definitely not talking about Panantukan but obviously Filipino BOXERS possibly influencing Western boxing. However, I find it hard to believe that the influence was so great and was the cause for changing the hand positioning.

    I am curious to know when Ali actually met Elorde or did this influence come by way of footage. I don’t think it happened in 75’ (Thrilla in Manila) cause Elorde’s career was already in a downward spiral by the mid-60’s.

    Please understand that I am not trying to discredit the claims but am looking for clarification in the question and accounts.

    John J
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2005
  19. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Member

    I've been training in arnis on and off (more on than off) since 1989. As for the "mutt" thing, sorry. I mean what I do is a mixture of lots of things. Arnis, kickboxing, etc. "Mutt" just sounds less pretentious to me than "eclectic." :D
     
  20. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Member



    Agreed. The switching leads thing, even when it does take place in boxing, doesn't happen the way it would in arnis.



    I'm guilty of using "gunting" to describe any destruction, though I did know that literally it means "scissors." And really only two of the empty hand destructions I can think of involve a literal scissoring action. The slap to the inside of the bicep as you parry with the other hand and the downward guide with the parry hand as you come upward with the point of your elbow. The others I know aren't really scissoring motions at all. Is there another term that's more accurate?


    Stuart
     

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