Flavors of Balintawak

Discussion in 'Balintawak' started by fangjian, Jan 3, 2013.

  1. Cochise

    Cochise Member


    thank you for your response, which I have read completely, of course. A few comments:

    Please, do not get hung up on the word 'jerk', note that I have used that in an inclusive manner, including myself and everyone else involved here; I did so simply to remind ourselves that being opinionated is all well and good, but that we should try to not pick on each other. That has happened, and still is happening, in so many other martial arts, it's sad. As I have speculated before, the bad intentions or agenda you have read out of Jon's posts seems to be rooted in past interactions and personal antipathy to which I obviously cannot speak. What this has to do with his instructor, though, is beyond me and I don't get why you would bring him into this, if you like him, but obviously dislike his student in question here. That is a strange move, if you ask me.

    As for the Family tree topic and the Atillos, I merely chose an example to illustrate my point that, judging from my own impressions of postings on this forum, I would - if pressed - rather associate some of your postings with an agenda than Jon's - it was just a response to what appeared to be an uncalled for accusation (only looking at the actual postings on this forum). Just looking at this very thread, it clearly looks to me that Jon's made an effort to clear up misunderstandings. I did not intend to discuss a topic that has been already debated on here and elsewhere for pages on end about a decade ago. I am aware of the fact that claims and statements have been made that prompted people to respond in the way they did and to present their side of the story. I understand and respect the necessity of that.

    With regards to 'the truth', there are a few problems that I see:
    As far as I know, we have very little to no documentation at all as to who trained with whom when, where, and - more importantly - what, for exactly which amount of time. So all we can ever achieve is an approximation of the truth. Now my information and knowledge probably leads me to an approximation of the truth that differs from yours, even if it should be the same information - note, I agree with your approach of comparing what several of the masters say and going with what seems to be the most common denominator and general consensus as a reasonable method of approximation, but there are some problems with this, too, when there is very little to go on - which is okay, I have no problem with that and I'm sure neither do you. You will just have to trust that my information is from sources equally as credible and valuable as yours, since all we have is verbal history of, let's face it, only a very small number of individuals.

    You would probably not believe the arrogant and terribly uninformed comments I have read on Youtube of a second or third generation European student under GM Taboada's organisation. It's by no means GM Taboada's fault, but it goes to show that, when it comes to PR and public representation, students (and students of student's of student's, etc.) are sometimes the worst advocates of their teachers.

    'The truth' oftentimes gets bent in many ways when there is no hard evidence. And it is not only via lies being told, sometimes it is by omission of details or even not mentioning certain people at all. And sometimes that is true for masters and grandmasters, too, as they are human beings, too. Lineage trees and the like are often good examples of this, so are rank and titles at times.

    Having said that, a general comment: I don't have a horse in the race some people seem to be running, because I don't see it as a race at all. We should learn, train, study, teach, share, and promote the arts as best we can, in my opinion. Which is why I forgive every Balintawak camp their fauxpas, omissions, etc. There is a lot of pride and ego involved and I understand that ignorance is bliss - especially when ignoring things that don't sit well with one's own beliefs and perception. All of us are most probably guilty of that to some degree. Train hard, be proud of yourself, your teachers, your style, your lineage, but allow other people that same luxury. That's the way I see it. If lies are being told, it is the right thing to do to present your side of the story, that's just fair, then people can make their own minds up what they believe to be a lie and what not. The same applies if someone is misrepresented - which seemed to be the sole problem in this thread at first, before it became clear that personal dislike is of equal importance here.

    Thanks and be well.
  2. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member


    I agree with a lot of what you say.

    Just a few points:

    1) If every group but one agrees on the founder, something very basic and can be verified by those who were still alive would that not make people question the one that was out of sync from the others?

    2) Recently and on this site someone presented data that did not conflict with many of the oral histories and it was accepted because of the source and because it made sense. It also did not take anything away from anyone but clarified some information. Of course some did think it took away form their grandfather and that it was an insult to them. But in general it was accepted by to community and they moved on.

    I still say if you are in the states I will try to see you and talk. It is always good to meet other FMA practitioners.
  3. Cochise

    Cochise Member


    before I forget to address it again: Thank you for the invitation to meet up. I will probably take you up on it, should I ever be close to your neck of the woods. It is not likely to happen in the near future, however, because it would involve a major trip I can't afford at this point in time.

    To your other points:

    1) I was not discussing the whole Atillo topic in my last post, but since you bring it up this time, just this much: I do not agree with the major row that was made about the name and I don't see where GM Atillo claimed that his father or himself founded the system. I do agree with other major points of contest and clarification that have been made, though. And, yes, I thought that people had indeed moved on, but it seems some have not.

    2) Would you direct me to the data you speak of that was presented here, please? I may well have missed it, since I was not reading these boards all that much for quite a while.

  4. fangjian

    fangjian Jo Dong

    I didn't mean anything by that comment that included the "per se" in it. My implication was " Ted Buot is in the video. He is just under the 'Original' flag "

    When I read your posts Rich, you also sound like a jerk many times. However, when I read posts, I try my best to 'read it how Spock would read it'. No emotion.
    It's too easy to 'project what you want this person to sound like'. Which seems to happen on here.........ad nauseam.

    Your interaction with me =
    -I said Hi to you once, in person. I think that was it. hhahaha. ...I don't think we conversed much at all that day. I talked to Tim Hartman more that time. Had Lyme Disease at the time and was a mess. I wasn't gonna come but didn't wanna miss it.
    -Maybe around 3 threads on here and martial talk.
    -A phone call.

    -That day we met, I was feeling like crap so I might've been standoffish and stuff. You claim I 'talked it up' and such. Idk. I already mentioned how it was possible I made a joke and others didn't take it as a joke. Idk. You haven't mentioned what was said, so I don't know. I also apologized to you about this whole thing already.

    -Threads. Occasionally, we come off in ways that aren't intended. Even on that thread on martial talk, I apologized if I ever came off the wrong way. It happens with all of us. As far as this thread, it's clear that I have no ill intent. Unless you define the word ill the way Run DMC does. Holla :)

    -Our chat on the phone seemed fine. Idk, man.
  5. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    And that might be why I think you read like and act like a jerk as you responded to me in such manner in the past. So maybe in the written word we just are jerk to each.

    Being a jerk and insulting and then apologizing and still doing it is like not apologizing. Yet if you believe you did nothing wrong then who am I. And yet I have to ask who are you?
    I get along with some many people and groups, and for those that go out of their way to alienate me or make me just not deal with them unless they cross my arts or make statements I disagree about and can show or state data to the contrary in which case then I reply to set the record straight or to keep the record straight.

    If you post a million times on a million sites that something is true sooner or later that will be the perception and then that will be the reality.

    If you keep it debatable and present data then one point of view is not going to be everything.

    I am not saying you have done this. I am saying I have dealt with this. I am saying you may read my points as technicalities. As being a jerk. As being to detail oriented. I understand. I really do.

    To me you want to succeed. Then go out and train. Work with others. Meet and greet and make friends. Do not make comments that can be taken out of context or misunderstood that you are joking or not. Be polite . Be professional. Work with people. Answer their questions.

    If you do all of this, and yes it may require your time and money to go see people as people usually will not come see you unless they know you already, and the people like you personally and what you have to offer then they might bring you to them on their dime or they might come to see you on their dime. I know most people do not want to do this.

    So, get a group of people together. Go as a group to these other events. You work with the host to bring this group and see if they will comp you the cost of the event. Yes it will cost you the hotel and gas or shared hotel and gas depending upon how you travel. Once at these events, work with people. Be friendly. Do not say things are wrong. Say yes that is cool. This is how we do it differently. That is an interesting variation. And of course keep any and all sarcasm out of your voice. Be sincere.

    I like working with people. I enjoy seeing things different and the same and both from other people.

    Good Luck
  6. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    I sent you a message with the link to the thread I was discussing.

    As to point 1, Most of it was on GM Atillo's site(s) and they would go up and then down and change the story and get changes again.
  7. fangjian

    fangjian Jo Dong

    Any time that I have written to you or anyone, there was NEVER any ill intent. Never any condescending attitude, etc.
    So what's going on is:

    1) I did not take enough care when writing my posts (checking to see if 'people could take something the wrong way')
    2) You are reading my posts and 'projecting some kind of tone on it' which makes things sound negative/insulting/condescending/etc. I'd be willing to bet that all of the above is going on at some level
    I like that first sentence. Very true. There's a lot of things going on in this conversation though. So as for 'an apology for a certain thing', I don't know. I have apologized if there were misunderstandings a few times for a couple different issues before. If you are referring to my 'per se' post, I already explained what my actual implication was.
    No question. 'Do not make comments that can be taken out of context.' -Sure. Always good advice. But sometimes, people just take your stuff out of context. Doesn't mean it was your fault, per se. And you still haven't mentioned what it was someone said to you. What did I supposedly even say?
    Sure. No doubt. 'Do not say things are wrong' I don't know if you are implying that I was doing any of these things at your event. It seems unlikely for me to tell someone they did something 'wrong'. Are you just giving advice, or are you referring to something 'that I supposedly did' ?
  8. dark_hadou

    dark_hadou Junior Member

    Real Talk lol
  9. kevin hand

    kevin hand New Member

    balintawak is just amazing! ive been looking more into it the past couple weeks since i discovered a video of gm bobby taboada on youtube. i may have not spelled his name correctly. for christmas my wife is going to get me some of the balintawak videos. ive been trying to decide between the atillo videos and the taboada videos. im going to end up with them all eventually anyways. ive been involved with martial arts for over 45 years and have had a decent enough background with fma to help facilitate my learning from video. of course, i do plan to meet up with balintawak instructors somewhere along the way so i can correct any mistakes. but it seems like one of the best close range eskrima systems ive ever seen! thanks for sharing the video! great job!
  10. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman FMA Talk Founder Supporting Member

  11. free2flow

    free2flow New Member

  12. Cochise

    Cochise Member

    Kevin apparently has found an instructor to train with under GM Taboada. So the respective DVDs will probably be a good training reference and aid for him.
  13. kevin hand

    kevin hand New Member

    thank you datu tim. ive got gm taboada's website, along with several others in my favorites. also, the videos by gm atillo seems like an interesting purchase as well. ive gotten all of dan anderson's books on ma80 and a book by bram frank. all these books are very interesting to read and to learn from. im not new to fma but i always try to seek out more knowledge and experience, especially with those who have trained in an art and have been qualified to teach that art. that is my goal with fma. to be able to spread the art because of it's beauty and practicality. ive shared what i know with people for many years but find myself always wanting to learn more. it makes me very happy to have found adam greenspan living so near to me so i can learn balintawak from the ground up. thank you again for mentioning his videos.

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