Rich, thank you for your response, which I have read completely, of course. A few comments: Please, do not get hung up on the word 'jerk', note that I have used that in an inclusive manner, including myself and everyone else involved here; I did so simply to remind ourselves that being opinionated is all well and good, but that we should try to not pick on each other. That has happened, and still is happening, in so many other martial arts, it's sad. As I have speculated before, the bad intentions or agenda you have read out of Jon's posts seems to be rooted in past interactions and personal antipathy to which I obviously cannot speak. What this has to do with his instructor, though, is beyond me and I don't get why you would bring him into this, if you like him, but obviously dislike his student in question here. That is a strange move, if you ask me. As for the Family tree topic and the Atillos, I merely chose an example to illustrate my point that, judging from my own impressions of postings on this forum, I would - if pressed - rather associate some of your postings with an agenda than Jon's - it was just a response to what appeared to be an uncalled for accusation (only looking at the actual postings on this forum). Just looking at this very thread, it clearly looks to me that Jon's made an effort to clear up misunderstandings. I did not intend to discuss a topic that has been already debated on here and elsewhere for pages on end about a decade ago. I am aware of the fact that claims and statements have been made that prompted people to respond in the way they did and to present their side of the story. I understand and respect the necessity of that. With regards to 'the truth', there are a few problems that I see: As far as I know, we have very little to no documentation at all as to who trained with whom when, where, and - more importantly - what, for exactly which amount of time. So all we can ever achieve is an approximation of the truth. Now my information and knowledge probably leads me to an approximation of the truth that differs from yours, even if it should be the same information - note, I agree with your approach of comparing what several of the masters say and going with what seems to be the most common denominator and general consensus as a reasonable method of approximation, but there are some problems with this, too, when there is very little to go on - which is okay, I have no problem with that and I'm sure neither do you. You will just have to trust that my information is from sources equally as credible and valuable as yours, since all we have is verbal history of, let's face it, only a very small number of individuals. You would probably not believe the arrogant and terribly uninformed comments I have read on Youtube of a second or third generation European student under GM Taboada's organisation. It's by no means GM Taboada's fault, but it goes to show that, when it comes to PR and public representation, students (and students of student's of student's, etc.) are sometimes the worst advocates of their teachers. 'The truth' oftentimes gets bent in many ways when there is no hard evidence. And it is not only via lies being told, sometimes it is by omission of details or even not mentioning certain people at all. And sometimes that is true for masters and grandmasters, too, as they are human beings, too. Lineage trees and the like are often good examples of this, so are rank and titles at times. Having said that, a general comment: I don't have a horse in the race some people seem to be running, because I don't see it as a race at all. We should learn, train, study, teach, share, and promote the arts as best we can, in my opinion. Which is why I forgive every Balintawak camp their fauxpas, omissions, etc. There is a lot of pride and ego involved and I understand that ignorance is bliss - especially when ignoring things that don't sit well with one's own beliefs and perception. All of us are most probably guilty of that to some degree. Train hard, be proud of yourself, your teachers, your style, your lineage, but allow other people that same luxury. That's the way I see it. If lies are being told, it is the right thing to do to present your side of the story, that's just fair, then people can make their own minds up what they believe to be a lie and what not. The same applies if someone is misrepresented - which seemed to be the sole problem in this thread at first, before it became clear that personal dislike is of equal importance here. Thanks and be well.