filipino fighting secrets live blog - empty hand

Discussion in 'General' started by THEKUNTAWMAN, Apr 3, 2014.



    hello everyone. I am the writer of the filipino fighting secretslive blog.

    i dont do the forums anymore, but i have enough friends asking me to comment on some of the forums where the blog is discuss. it seems people dont mind me talking about FMA unless i am disagreeing with what most people feel is true, like my opinion of what is called "FMA empty hand"

    i been doing this art since most FMA masters today were just discovering they like FMAs more than karate or kung fu. Jet kune do is not my introduction to these arts. and neither is the seminar, or the video tapes, or wing chun, or remy presas, etc. i lived with my master, who is my own grandfather, and he was not a mainstream teacher. the art he had, he change for himself, then taught to me, and i changed it for myself and then teach it to my students. because my way in is not through danny inosanto or remy presas, i am 99% different than most of you.

    but my lolo is not my only teacher. i was also a student of bogs lao and ernesto and roberto presas. i was a part of the manila and angeles city martial arts community for years, and the washington dc/baltimore martial arts and boxing community as well. i spent a lot of time competing and training with people all over the East Coast and the midwest. i am no novice. and unlike most FMA people, i do not "exchange" well with people. my experience exchanging is through sparring and training. most people experience is through making friends and teaching each other what you know. now i dont know what FMA community most people get their philosophy from, but in my experience, teachers do not sell their information, they keep it to themselves, and they look for ways to make their style BEAT other people styles. which is exactly how i approach the FMA.i did not create my system to look like everyone else style. I am not trying to add everything. i dont care if most people will not be attracted to my arts. what i do care is that when i promote a guy to the advance level i know for a FACT that my guy will destroy 99% of the opponents in front of him. i have a very small number of advance students/instructors, but my quality is very high. most FMA grandmasters cant even NAME every advance student in his style

    i reject mass instruction and recruiting of students. would i like hundreds of students? yes. but only hundreds of students who will train the way i prefer to teach my arts and stick with it long enough to be the best representative of my style--and even become better and stronger than me.

    which lead me to my point. when i write that FMA empty hand is not effective, i am not saying FMA is not effective. read what i wrote: i say that FMA empty hand is not effective the way most of you do it.

    limb destructions work. trapping works. but they do not work the way you do them. many people wont get it, and they cannot understand unless you see me in person, and let me prove to you IN PERSON that they dont work.

    and this is why i dont like forums anymore. too much talk, too much hiding behind the computer, no way to prove your point so all we can really do is argue like little girls or hold hands like little girls. i dont put youtube clips because its not how I do business. i dont teach by distance, and i protect my information for people who earn it. so if you want to test my opinion of FMA empty hands, you have to do it in person. but because of the nature of most FMA people's approach in the martial arts, you wont. when i make my statement, it is because i have discovered this to be true in my experience. i have been challenged by too many people who never show up, people in my city talking crap from the safety of facebook and closed forums who will never show up at my door or any tournament me and my guys go to or never show up for my fight nights. so my "theory" is proven a fact to me, until someone else proves it wrong.

    if you live far away from california and you want to test your FMA empty hand, try going in a boxing gym. pay the daily fee, and tell the coach you want some ring time. they will always obligate you.

    by the way, i do not teach FMA as a side dish to kung fu. i teach it along with my kung fu. the two do not mix, and when you get in my school you have to decide which you want to do, FMA or kung fu. in my 20+ years i had my school, only one guy has done both, and he is one of the instructors in my kuntaw, and I will put money on him against any man reading this blog. trust me, anyone in northern california who knows me knows i am right and would not want to be on the floor with any of my guys.

    and dont ask me for clips and stuff like that. I'm old school, I do my challanges in person and we always accept. ;-)
  2. zipbolang

    zipbolang New Member

    Hahaa... Interesting view. I imagine with an outlook like that, your classes are small...nay, probably dwindling as as Im sure scads of students flock away from your ass kickers club. I've seen and been to places like yours before. Pain is the order of the day with a side of belittling.

    Unfortunately this 'challenge" nonsense went the way of the dodo bird. merely stating something like that directly will get you charged at some point when one of the challengers walks away with life altering injuries from your 'expertise'. And there are NO waivers that will stand upto anything in court. The notion of a 'consensual fight' is erroneous.

    Yes youre right, I wouldnt want to be on the floor with any of your guys, you've got some serious issues.

    Its great to be proud of your lineage and Im not one for all the mealy mouthed stuff too, and I agree with your hardcore outlook, but whats most bothersome is the tone in which you write. I sense a deep resentment for something and its manifesting itself into the martial arts, which are supposed to be about sharing information, making contacts and practicing. I think this part of your outlook does not exemplify the FMA you were taught by your family. If it does, well, so be it. Everyone has a purpose in life, even if its to serve as a bad example.

    Im old school too and I laugh at all the arm-chair generals talking from the safety of behind the keyboard too. But thats all I do is laugh. To issue open challenges is archaic and the sign of something fundamentally wrong. It's just martial arts sir (or Miss, I don't know), which is a PART of your life, not all of it.

    If thats the way you see it though, I can only venture a guess that youre in the Superman portion of your youth and virtually indestructible. There will come a time when you'll realize that if all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.

    Awesome post, challenging more than most and thought provoking. Thanks for the reminders.

    good luck


    No, you have me wrong. I don't have resentment to people, but understand, this art is a fighting art and if you are not keeping "fight" in mind, your doing a martial-like arts, not a martial art. The atmosphere in the school is just a serious one, not a intimidating one. Teachers have to decide, is the arts for the serious martial artist or the masses. You cannot appeal to both. Now if the art will be for fighting/self defense purpose, it cannot be for the masses. Real art, of anything-music, sports, fighting will not be for the masses unless it's watered down. The FMA of today, it's watered down. There is nothing hardcore or unrealistic about that.

    When you are used to weak martial artists, a real martial artist will look unreasonable. I accept that. But to try and take away from the real artist, or make fun or him is wrong. Especially when people are taught that the water down art is "real" and the real artist is crazy or something. There is nothing wrong with saying "I have the best fighters". There is nothing untraditional or un-martial arts like to say that or strive for that. And thank you for the compliment, but your post shows what is wrong with the Filipino arts today. The arts have become water down, friendly and weak. So now when some guy says "I'm the big dog in the room" everybody wants to cry. Do you know what happens when a boxer says he is the big dog? He is asked to prove it. But the FMA man who does he respect? Big names, guys with nice cute YouTube clips, lots of DVD for sale, article and books, famous friends... And the guy who trains hard to be the best fighter is call an *******

    and that's why I don't do mainstream FMA


    And challenges in the FMA is not "nonsense". You can't have FMA without them and any teacher who has never have them or answered them is too green to be a teacher, especially to call himself an expert. Funny how all your websites talk about how your old man use to challenges people, but the new generations are so afraid to do it themself as if real FMA is only for stories
  5. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    let me ask you something, is your fma empty hands really fma? or is it just watered down boxing, kickboxing, muay thai and a bunch of other non-filipino martial arts with a small part of fma empty hands ( transfering the stick and blade methods to the hand)? I mean your name is kuntawman, which I assume you practice kuntaw which is basically eskrima with kung fu added to it? see me point?

    Pretty soon your students will even question if what there learning is even fma at all, aside from waking people with sticks and knives.


    My Kuntaw is just that, Kuntaw with "my" at the beginning. I do teach pure Kuntaw, which is the art as I learned it. But all my students also learn my own techniques with it, which has my boxing, my kickboxing and my point fighting experience. I didn't add anything, I actually teach my students to box, I teach them to kickboxing, and I teach them to point fight, along with the traditional art of Kuntaw. I don't mix it with Jow Ga, and that is because I promised not to do that when I was younger. My Jow Ga students get the same thing; the art as I learned it as well as my own style. I believe when people mock me for making up my own style this is what they are talking about--but I did not invent my Kuntaw and I did not invent my Kung Fu. For what you say you are looking for a pre FMA style with no outside influence I don't think you will find that because even the culture of our country is not "pure" by most people standard, we are a blend of cultures and people. The art is the same way. I agree with you that most people are teaching a water down style, and that is because of the nature of the business of FMA--to be entertaining and fit into the costume that our seminar masters have created. But we can still purify the FMA that exists through our students, by fighting training and developing.
  7. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    I still feel that even though you don't "mix up" the martial arts you teach all together, you still in a sense teach your students a mixed art just in a different way of teaching. I mean you said so yourself that you teach box, kickboxing and then later kuntaw, in other words you teach them in a way that will make them turn it into a mixed art, and i don't think you realize that.

    "For what you say you are looking for a pre FMA style with no outside influence I don't think you will find that because even the culture of our country is not "pure" by most people standard, we are a blend of cultures and people. The art is the same way."

    I didn't mean it that way, what I meant was fma with out having to have to incorporate foreign arts the way mma or jkd does it. Fma evolves by fighting other foreign arts and learning how to deal with it by fighting or in a modern sense, sparring, not incorporating by going to different sytems and reyling on them because what you learn from fma is not GOOD ENOUGH. I'm starting to think that there really is no such thing as fma empty hands or fma in general if all it is, is just a rip off of other martial arts and calling it our own. Do you see where I"m going with this?

    There are things that make pencak silat unique to indonesia, just as there are things in muay thai that makes it unique to thailand and not a similar carbon copy of another fighting system and calling it their own made. Jujutsu is uniquely japanese with rarely any outside influence. Notice how I use the world RARELY. There are a few, but they don't make up what these arts are and can do with out them. For fma, it seems to be a different story for you and other eskrimadors, which is why I do feel that I speak for you and everyone else when I say that fma is nothing by itself and has to rely on others by incorporating and bringing in foreign martial arts just like what mcdojos do, they incorporate what is other fighting systems techniques to compensate the fact that their own don't work.

    Sure marital arts do evolve, but most of the ones that were good to begin with change in a different matter. Muay thai evolves by fighting other martial arts and learning how to deal with them with out consulting their fighting system and learning their techniques. Same goes for jujutsu and other fighting systems like pencak silat. However you also have some mma practioners who try to be good at boxing first to refine their upper striking skills for muay thai and try to mix wrestling with bjj or judo, thats something that i don't deny, BUT its been proven that a pure thai boxer can handle itself well (in a pure boxing match) against western boxer in a boxing match. So without an add on to boxing muay thai or judo with out wrestling can do itself just fine.

    Which is why this fma empty hand not being fma is big thing, because it leads to the question. Is fma actually fma at all? The only thing that seems uniquely filipino is the weapon aspect. Except for moro silat, thats a completely different story.
  8. Pinuti

    Pinuti New Member

    I'm a bit confused by what your trying to say. You believe that kali empty hands is effective just not the way we're doing it right? But you seem to bash what makes it kali empty hands, trying to translate the stick and knife to emptpy hands is what makes it kali in the first place, other wise its not fma at all and probably just something you added to it and called it "fma empty hands".

    Also I wonder, if you really believe that kali empty hands is effective (the way you see fit). Then why do you take other martial arts? I don't mean to make any offense I'm am just very curious that a lot of "modern" eskrimadors who partake in fma but also try to do other martial arts where else it isn't very common to see JMA (japanese martial arts/judo, jujutsu, taijutsu) learning other martial arts like ours....I read some of your blogs, and although I agree on the many many things you say, there are still concerns such as the ones I have stated that need to be looked into


    I can tell the difference between empty hand that is there just so somebody can say "we have empty hand" and empty hand that been develop, trained and tested. It's something that all fighters can smell when we are around it. Martial artists who don't do much fighting have no idea of the difference. Fighters will look at a technique and say "that ain't ever going to work" or "I bet you he never used that stuff before". Non fighters will look at a technique and go "cool! That techniques look so deadly", or they will look at a real fighting technique as if it is so boring.

    The real martial arts is not as interesting or exotic. It might not "look Filipino", as sword experiment is looking for. It won't sell seminar spots. It not going to look good on video or DVD. But it is real and effective, and if you train hard and test it, it will become real-effective. When I "bash" most peoples FMA, it's because I know it is not neither trained hard or tested. Hard to prove on the Internet, it has to be done in person. But guess what, in my 44 years of life, I have never met an FMA man who is willing to show, test and prove his FMA empty hand in person. <----- and that is why I say what I say. These are not opinions, they are theories I tested and proven myself.

    the answer is not to issue me a challenges on email or message boards; the answer is prove it to yourself. Get some guys together or go where there are other fighters and test and prove it to yourself. Challenge *them*, that is what the FMA is all about right? How many men here have fought eskrima vs kendo? Eskrima vs fencing? Your empty hand va Muay Thai? Or your empty hand vs a tae kwon do? I have done all of this, and that is why I get to talk against a FMA because I did it myself. All I want is for FMA people to do it too. If you were here in my city I could teach it to you or prove it to you, and this is why I made the blog, to share my philosophy in the best way I can for people who are not near me. But as the modern FMA guy is, they get upset and look for ways to discredit who I am or throw insults and challenges across the Internet.

    To answer your questions about me and other arts. I took my first Kung fu lesson while living in Taiwan when I was 9 years old. When I was 11 we found Jow Ga. When I was 15 my fathers father took me to the boxing gym. Both arts I been doing them I was a child, and I continue doing them because I like them, not because I feel anything I do is not effective. I didn't just take a few lessons, I doing them arts all my life and there is a huge difference. So I live the philosophy I write about: if you cross train into something really do it, box as good as a boxer, do eskrima as good as an eskrimador, do Kung fu as good as a Kung fu man. My other arts might enhance the other, but they are just as good by themself.


    Oh one last thing, the reason you don't see a lot of JMA doing other arts is because they respect the arts they are studying and the arts are taught by competent men. Not in the FMA. Most FMA today is taught by weak men, it is taught by seminar mostly, it is most people teacher's side dish--so everybody treats like a side dish. People don't respect the art enough to do it alone. It's the same reason why a man might cheat on his wife with a whore, but he will never marry her. FMA has been a money making side whore for too many McDojo teachers, very few treat it like a honorable, respectable art. Even many of our grandmasters pimped out there FMA, teaching it to whoever and certifying anyone with a buck. How often have you met a master who said "my top guys can whip any man in the room"? Very few of us are putting out the best fighters we can. I just taught at a seminar last week and said that same thing. Some people got mad, some people respected, but my top guy couldn't get a sparring match to save his life. There was I think 8 Guros there, and only one of them feels his boys can whip the world. Btw, we have a scrimmage planned for this summer--and that is how the FMA should interact, not hold hands take pictures and teach each other our secrets.
  11. Pinuti

    Pinuti New Member

    What you saying, I agree a lot with, but I'm still skeptical on your view on fma empty hands and how you treat it. I still feel that you cross train a few- a lot, of things in fma empty hands/panantukan/pagumot. Such as say, you said you do boxing and other martial arts, i'm pretty sure that you cross train a lot of moves into fma empty hands right? You talk about other people treating fma like a side dish when you in a sense also treat it like one. I"ve read some of your blogs and you claim that fma doesn't need to be well rounded because its a "..weapons only". In other words, your treating it like a fencing art, no different from kenjutsu.


    I know that's how it looks, but Eskrima to me is just a weapons art. It is separate from my Kuntaw and there is very little that bleed into the other. I teach using the stick vs the knife and stick vs the empty hands. The little empty hand I seen most masters do, including my own grandfather, is to back up the weapons. We have a separate art for empt hand. Now when I was learning it the only place to try it out is in the martial arts tournament and the boxing gym. The result of that is that I learned to box, learned to kickbox, and learned to do sport karate. They didn't change the art I do, they just enhance my understanding of fighting, and how to use my art. Many ppl learn art, but they don't know how to use it. And this is the #1 reason I accept all challenges and why FMA who give me a challenge never show up: people don't like what I say, but they themself don't know if they can really use the art, even tho they say they can. There is a difference between showing the art in YouTube or a seminar--and actually using it against an op


    Opponent. My boxing is just another sport I like to do. It does not get mixed into my art, although all my students who want to fight learn to box. There are many lessons from boxing I bring into art, but my Kuntaw is not Kuntaw-boxing or my Jow Ga is not Jow Ga boxing. What I write about in the blog is, this. You have to take your art into some kind of ring with strange people, and you have to use it competitively if your goal is fighting or self defense. This art not "too dangerous for sparring". There is a reason NO. FMA tournament has empty hand. I am just the messenger. The way to disagree to me is to do it in front of an opponent, not on Facebook or FMATalk


    My other arts are not "cross training". I have boxed and did Kung fu for over 25 years, that isn't cross training. I trained judo, bjj and aikido for about 9-12 months each... And that was cross training. I did Olympic style tkd for about 4 years and mostly trained and competed=cross training. A few seminars or workouts is not cross training, that is dabbling. In the FMA world, we make things too easy. And as a result, most people who teach the art is very soft. We have to change this.
  15. swordexperiment

    swordexperiment New Member

    If eskrima "is a weapons only art" then there's really no point into challenging other martial arts using eskrima/fma because its like having a European fencer go against a folk wrestler or a kendo fighter go against a boxer. Which means that your point literally went flying out the window. Anther thing is that I was referring to kali/eskrima/arnis/panantukan empty hands not fma empty hands because that's to general.

    I think your talking about sikaran or yaw yan which is basically watered down McDojo taekwondo and Muay Thai with a "filipino" name over it
  16. jwinch2

    jwinch2 Member

    You two deserve each other.

    One of you comes on here, seemingly for the express purpose of telling everyone how much better you are then everyone else, and how we are all just a bunch of softies to who don't train properly. Never mind the fact that you don't know crap about any of us.

    The other one of you comes on here telling everyone how FMA empty hand doesn't really work, and how we are just all deluding ourselves, or refuse to admit that we cross train in MMA in order to get our empty hand skills. Never mind the fact that you have personally never trained FMA for any length of time.

    By all means, have at it.
  17. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman FMA Talk Founder Supporting Member

    As much as I like watching a food fight I will say this. As the owner of FMATalk, don't get carried away. I encourage a good debate, but you're beginning to wear on my patience....


    Wait a minute. You mean you're offended because I'm suggesting a better way? I haven't said one word insulting anyone, I am just challenging the way everyone thinks. What do I have to do, make a movie so that no one will be offended? Debate, disagreement is part of the martial arts. Saying that "I'm the best" (which I didn't say, I say this in person) is part of the FILIPINO martial arts. This is why I don't hang with FMA people, but the ones who know me don't insult me.

    Sword experiment, calling Sikaran a McDojo is a risky thing if you say it in public. Regardless of how those styles are created I know and fought people from both clubs and they can bang. They are definitely not a McDojo. But the FMA who teach by correspondence course, video and crash course--that is McDojo.
  19. Pinuti

    Pinuti New Member

    ..I don't really understand, you claim that fma empty hands is effective while at the same time calling kali/eskrima/arnis an only weapons art. When I said fma empty hands i meant Kali/eskrima/arnis like balintiwak eskrima. I assume that empty hands is very general and vague, I didn't mean kuntaw, yaw yan or sikaran. I know these arts can handle themselves, but I refer to panantukan which is just a filipino word for "empty hands".


    what I mean is this: the techniques will work, that eskrima guys who do "fma empty hands"--just not the way they do them. all I am suggesting is that fighters, take those skills into the ring, onto the mat, with NON-fma guys to figure out how they work. it's not the technique, its the methods. just like two cooks could take the same ingredients, and one will have excellent dishes, and the other have something nasty. martial artists have to have more than technique, they have to understand fighting. drills is not fighting. prearrange defense is not fighting. punching pads is not fighting. fighting is fighting.

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