Filipino blade history to present time info...

Discussion in 'Misc. Knife Arts' started by Ron Kosakowski, Mar 3, 2009.

  1. themorningstar

    themorningstar New Member

    we as collectors, historians and researchers can assure you they are not historically accurate- you disagree they are. what happens if someone shows you they are not? will you being willing to accept that? will you then try to make a new copy? will you change things around like the kampilan and talibong handles? what will you do?
    i would hope for the better mr. kosakowski-you can do so much good with your business especially for fma practicioners, but only if you make sure its done with honest and truthful information.
     
  2. themorningstar

    themorningstar New Member

    can we have a productive discussion mr kosakowski...?
     
  3. Ron Kosakowski

    Ron Kosakowski New Member

    Well Mr Morningstar, like I said, you seem to follow me around for some reason or another. Even on MySpace? On my forum? Hmmm...you in love with me or something? All I see here is you putting down my blades. If you are trying to put me out of business, you cannot. What is your goal here? What do you actually like about the TFW business...anything at all?

    You are throwing stuff at me I never said, picking apart my words on every thread I go on in this forum. This thread started off with MY observation on the little time that I can spend there each year. Yet my observations are attacked in a very unfriendly manner in a very sarcastic way. I even said at the beginning, "thoughts to add to my opinions here?" I am interested in Philippine history and culture for whatever reason and maybe you should appreciate that or are you just over and above everyone else?

    As for the blades, I have seen many rusty originals, how you can say they are not accurate, i don't know and you never showed me differently. I have seen the Talibong on the web with the hooked handles with subtle design differences. the Kampilan when it first came out was on the opposit side, then repaired before to many went out. I know the Pinute is called other names elsewhere also.

    As for GT Leo saying the name wrong...it was on one blade which was the Panabas, he called the Laring. I didn't catch that when i was filming but he did a pretty good job on the rest.

    And I do not see what is wrong with making one little modification out of a sheath to hold the blades in better. Like I said, some woods from there have warped. A VERY small amount did that. I did not want that happen anymore so the clips were added. It is the blade makers design and yes, they are still traditional.

    I have not met anyone so unfriendly before. Like I said, appreciate where i am at here. through email or in person, I may have learned a lot from you. I am open minded. Always have been. That you should see in what I am doing. The putting down of others to make yourself look good is not what I am used to...at least I don't do that.
     
  4. Ron Kosakowski

    Ron Kosakowski New Member


    I am not basing it on another seller. I was basing it on Leo Gaje's Ginunting that he had long before the Marine modification. I do not have the Force Recon Ginunting. I do want to eventually have one made though. Or am I going against tradition if I do that?
     
  5. Ron Kosakowski

    Ron Kosakowski New Member

    Yup!
     
  6. Ron Kosakowski

    Ron Kosakowski New Member

    do you even have or have even read yambao's book?


    Where did I say yambaos book is Spanish wording? I merely said the Kali word is controversial and Yambao had to get it from somewhere.

    You have to read what I say. I have been friendly here without anger although you say I am angry. I came here to post to see who else was going to add to the posts. To see what others say but the sarcasm is amazing here and its always by you.
     
  7. R. Mike Snow

    R. Mike Snow Chiseled Edge

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  8. R. Mike Snow

    R. Mike Snow Chiseled Edge

    Hello everyone and my sincere apologies for the late reply. The blade I just posted in my previous post from my collection is NOT, and I will repeat, is NOT a Ginunting. To the untrained or misguided eye it may look like a Ginunting. But there are huge differences aside the general shape of the blade, again general shape or the blade. I have heard the particular sword labeled as a Binangkoko, Binangkuko and even a Matulis Kuko. But never a Ginunting! A true Ilinggo Ginuntings from Negros or Panay are NOT ever pinned at the butt of the hilt, do not gradually taper from the guard or ferrell, are never fullered, never fluted and do not even feel the same. Oh, and are never chiseled too far at the top, becaue it would ruin the forward weight(power of) the blade.

    Sincerely, Mike

    p.s. The stars at the top of the hilt represent the "THREE ISLANDS" regions of the Philippines. Luzun, the Vasiyas and the Sulu Sultanate. An independent and united Philippines is the theme of this Katipunan blade.
     
  9. Kali Cowboy

    Kali Cowboy New Member

    Nice blade Mike! I have one just like it! LOL. See you in Chicago, and I will bring your baby with me.
    God Bless,
    Stephen
     
  10. mabagani

    mabagani Pendato

    To get to the point and without sarcasm, you admit you are not an expert and still learning, yet you do mislead the public by continuing to write unresearched misinformation. Besides stating incorrect historical comments, you also admit to taking artistic liberties in the designs and making non-traditional modifications in the manufacturing of your products. So why use images of commercial copies rather than real artifacts on this thread about history? Doesn't this appear to fall under advertising and promoting products which is against forum rules? There are conflicts of interests here using copies instead of real examples and its the cause of many the contradictions. In general, it insults everyone's intelligence and its irresponsible to perpetuate false information.
     
  11. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Everyone here who's not still learning, raise your hand!
     
  12. Buwaya

    Buwaya Senior Member

    My apologies, but I'm going to have to differ with the above poster on one particular point, I don't think it insult everyone's intelligence, I think it only insults the informed.

    The uninformed are oblivious. Perhaps blissfully.

    lets be straight up here. The Filipino martial arts community,in large part, is not educated in its own blades.

    Very few of the first wave of Migrant workers Filipinos that first taught and fought outside of the Philippines brought swords with them. Its uncommon to find footage or photographs of the Stockton or Hawaiian manongs with native Philippine sandata. When you see someone of that era with a sword, its likely a machete, or a fencing saber, or more common, Garotte/flatstick. Leo Giron is a noticeable exception to this.

    That gap in sword knowledge from one generation to the succeeding, their students, is why something like the blades at TFW's can be passed off as traditional and the history as well researched or even accurate. The body of practitioners doesn't know any better.

    The issue is that overseas FMA practitioners divorced from the traditions and lifestyles that surround their weaponry read something like the history on TFWs and believe it, and see or buy the blades and think they're holding traditional Philippine sandata.

    Its actually sad.

    I don't mind nonsense passed as history on the Internet. That's normal. I also don't mind fantasy interpretations of Philippine blades that are horribly inaccurate. Also normal. I mind when your talking about my culture and the Art, and you try to pass something off as something when it isn't.

    Be straight up and call it what it is. Those barongs weren't made in Sulu, those Pira weren't made by Yakan hands, those sansibars didn't come from Leyte. Call an apple an apple.

    I have more respect for someone who's creating modern reproductions using modern methods and honest about it, than somebody trying to sell the native indigenious never been alterted made by the same tribe for hundreds of years, made from modern steel, with belt clips, and pins, hundreds of miles from its region of origin.
     
  13. greg808

    greg808 PSDE Main Branch

    Thanks Ron. I'm astonished by your craftsmanship and one day will start a collection on your fine blades.
     
  14. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Yeah, this has always been the case for me. I've never studied with anyone who has made a point of really discussing what distinguishes one blade from another--it's as though everything is a bolo.
     
  15. ...depends who you study with.

    With Master Yuli Romo I am very fortunate that the weapons, culture and Philosophy of the Philippines are discussed every meeting. We also discuss how certain blades are made and the reasons for it. He has a collection of traditional pieces that he frequently shows visitors and does the occasional demo with.

    In the past he has lent me "Moro Swords" by Cato, a few other publications from Musuems and most recently a Philippine History book detailing early history to about the 1960s (when the book was published - a family heirloom!).

    He actively encourages students take an interest in the history and culture of these fighting arts and also wants all instructors to know alibata too. For me it adds an extra dimension to my training and understanding.

    I just wanted to share that not all instructors are alike.

    Simon.
     
  16. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    You're fortunate! Modern Arnis is very stick-oriented because of the strong Balintawak influence, but other FMA instructors with whom I've studied have also always just treated a sword as a sword. That's good from one point of view, but one misses the history and subtleties of design and usage!
     
  17. Yep, I count my blessings, I really do :)

    A point in case (from what I gather and I do stand to be corrected) is that a lot of traditional Filipino weapons have no guards - like the barong. So we are taught "squeezing" by Master Yuli.

    For example you bait the opponent with the edge pointed down and wait for their live hand to check you. When it arrives you squeeze and twist the blade to rotate it 180 degrees and withdraw - cutting the hand.

    With a guard that is not possible.
     
  18. sjansen

    sjansen New Member

    Hey Simon, do you have any pictures of the museum swords? I'd love to see them. I'm not up in the discussion of what is real and what isn't. I just want to learn.
     
  19. R. Mike Snow

    R. Mike Snow Chiseled Edge

    Yes Simon, you are blessed to have Master Romo as an instructor. GT Tortal speaks very highly of him.

    I would love to have that old classic too, as a keepsake. But all of the collectors I know and even my Pendakar from Jolo tell me that the information on Moro blades in the book is not enirely correct. I cannot wait to stumble across a copy one of these days to check it out. I have the old "Stone's Glossary" and it is off as well as severely lacking information on Sadata.
     
  20. Hi Mike,

    Yes, I tend to always to think of the 3 versions (mine, theirs and the real version) of the truth when dealing with anything historical - including oral history ;).

    I am ashamed to admit I just have a photocopy of that book as I couldn't afford the $200 - $300 to purchase it at one of the few places it is available on-line.

    Hi Scott,

    It's mostly Barongs he has as they were the favourite blade of his Instructor, GM Ilustrisimo. I think they are featured at the start of a you-tube video. I will see if I can dig it out.
     

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