Empty Hands

Discussion in 'Dekiti Tirsia Siradas' started by viejo, Aug 30, 2007.

  1. viejo

    viejo New Member

    Question for the Dekiti group, how important is empty hands in Dekiti, do u practice also how to translate the weapons movement to empty hand?
    Im talking here about empty hand against empty hand!!!!
  2. R. Mike Snow

    R. Mike Snow Chiseled Edge


    Hello Viejo,

    As we learn the contradas with with a baston, we are learning the footwork, lines of attack for sword and knife with with out even realizing it as a beginner As well as the parrying techniques derived from each line of attack. Thrusting, as well as changing ranges in the contradas for different types of slashing techniques intended for the varrying ranges. Also in the corto range, the punyo contradas integrating the 3rd hand(empty hand) for trapping, manipution of the opponents limbs, disarms, breaks, strikes and throws. Multiple finishing applications are then shown for each contrada and recontrada. A few of the punyo contradas are some what similar to the pakal contradas.

    As we progress to the blade contradas and recontradas. Again you learn the lines of attack for blade vs. blade, single and double. With the parries with and against each line. Then empty hands vs. weapons. Empty hand vs. baston & double baston, sword, knife, daga y daga, topado, sibat, staff, bayonet, PR-24, firearm retention & disarms, etc. The contradas and recontradas are all learned at the upper, middle and lower levels to prepare us for ground fighting. With and with out a weapon. As well as the counter trapping to prepare us for Dumog, reversal agains locks and holds. Seated and confinement(backed against a wall or corner) flow drills are also a part of our training regimen. Even multiple oppenent training and tactics.

    Now we reach the emty hand contradas and recontradas. Some of the basic contradas are the cross, uppercut to the solar plexus, uppercut to the chin, elbows, forarm smashes even knee contradas in a clich, etc. The contradas train your footwork, body mechanics and hand manipulationn. Again at all levels and multiple applications to each strike. Along with free flow contradas. Flowing from one technique to another effortlessly. The applications cover both opposing and nonopposing force techniques. Dekiti Dumog is based on blade techniques, as is 99% of the Dekiti Panggamut. We are told to always assume they have a blade. You will see alot of bone smashing hammer fists that are derived from the pakal knife grip and forarm smashes derived fromthe sak-sak knife grip techniques. In the lower levels we are also taught to use knee brushes & manipulations, sweeps & counter sweeps, limb destructions, reversals to throws & takedaowns and my favorite. that I am unable to execute propperly yet "kick the kick"(from the foot fighting techniques). We fight the same, blade and empty hand.

    This is a fraction of the progression to empty hand and even less of a fraction of the empty hand its self. Empty hand is our Major. There is alot to be filled in between the lines. The great thing about this system is that the concepts are simple, effective and easy to learn, but the variations of the concepts multiply into a limitless number of techniques. So even after you graduate to empty hand, it's still a life long journey. From my own observations, in the Dekiti Dumog I see some similarities to techniques found in Pancration, Kusti, Jioa-Te and Shuai-Chiao. The ancient combative grappling systems. But there are so many Dekiti Dumog techniques that are different than anything I have ever witnessed before. It is also different from other style of Dumog I have seen. I have also notice that a big part of the Dekiti system is to deflect your opponents energy making it easy to steal their balance. Allowing very effective energy reversal that jar your insides, leading to disabling trows that have no breakfalls. The angles are just too tight to roll out of the throws. Volunteering as the crash test dummy at many of the seminars I have felt ill for days from the trauma. And that is at a fraction the speed of a combat application.

    Now my friend I am not graduating, but retiring from typing. My finger flows are not so good............ I hope I answered your question in an some what informative manner?

    God Bless, Mike
  3. viejo

    viejo New Member

    Thanks Mike, that help a lot and maybe not only me....
  4. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    That was a great explanation. I know that I've been surprised by how Mr. Tortal has an answer for every situation. I've grappled with him at Mr. Snow's place and he has responses even for what one thinks of as BJJ positions.
  5. R. Mike Snow

    R. Mike Snow Chiseled Edge

    Hello Arnisador,

    That means alot coming from someone like your self. After your years of studying and analysing each and every system you have ever studied(aided by your photographic memory). Epsecially with your focus seeming to be on blade, infighting and groundfigthing techniques. Obviously, another reason I can say this is because you have been one of the small hand full of people that has witnessed GM Tortal's Dumog. And I partially have you to thank for convincing Grandmaster to start teaching his Dumog to his newer students. As well as the general public on some occasions. It is a highly effective combat and sport grappling system that we cannot afford to over looked and not preserve. But understandably, GM Tortal still only teaches that part of his system after individuals study Dekiti knife. So they understand the concepts that his Dumog is based upon.

    God Bless, Mike
  6. truth_be_told

    truth_be_told -== Banned ==-


    at your place
    is beginning progression from baston to daga to dumog to panggamut

    is the progression from baston to tapado length to double baston at the beginning

    or a mix of basics from all areas ?
  7. R. Mike Snow

    R. Mike Snow Chiseled Edge

    Halo again truth_be_told,

    I was originally taught to use both single baston for basic strikes, sunkiti, punyo strikes and basic contradas as well as double drills to practice power and footwork as solo drills. Unlike sinwali wich I find to be more 50/50 when it comes to power. For my self anyway. These drills are all power, all the time 100/100. The Topado came in more on an intermediate level with empty hand vs. weaponand knife vs. larger weapons. Even after studying Daga, middle and lower levels(fluid crouching) techniques.

    All most all the movements are the same knife vs. knife as empty hands vs. knife. We alway sassume they have a blade. For the Panggamut and Dumog.

    So I think more of acombination of your first and third educated guesses.

    Magalang(Respectfully), Mike

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