Empty Hand Skills that compliment Balintawak

Discussion in 'Balintawak' started by yomitche, Sep 11, 2008.

  1. yomitche

    yomitche New Member

    Just out of curiosity...

    what style(s) of empty hand training most compliment Balintawak practitioners?

    I have had a "mixed" background in empty hand styles (with several years devoted to classical Wing Chun and a lot of mingling afterward), but find some arts may benefit or lend themselves to the Balintawak sytlist's system more than others.

    Of the various arts available, what do others think contribute most to a Balintawak fighters empty hand skills?

    "JKD"... Muay Thai... Silat... General Panantukan... what?

    Thanks, and I look forward to the feedback rom others!
  2. nyorpino

    nyorpino New Member

    the stick training is already empty hand training.....although you could apply it on the knife...it is a complete system.. you've only read a page not the whole book.
  3. yomitche

    yomitche New Member

    Understood. And I appreciate your response and point. But the question was not "is Escrima an empty hand style in addition to a stick or knife fighting style?" The question posed was :

    what style(s) of empty hand training MOST compliment Balintawak?

    I appreciate that Balintiwak is a quite complete system. Just wondering what others here thought about the utility of, say, Muay Thai with a Balintawak curriculum, or any other art (for that matter)? That's all.

    Thank you, though.
  4. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Not all versions of Balintawak teach empty hands, though the applications are surely hidden there. I'd think that Wing Chun would mesh well with it!
  5. yomitche

    yomitche New Member

    Because of the range of Balintawak, a Wing Chun background has definitely been a benfit. It has lent itself to increased sensitivity, agressiveness at close range, "trapping" or perhaps more appropriately stated - tapping, etc.

    I don't know much about Panantukan, but from what I have seen, read, and heard, it seems to be capable of offering nice empty hand skills to any FMA style...
  6. jefsoriano

    jefsoriano New Member

    I have only trained Balintawak for a couple years but what I have seen and experienced is that it has sharpened many of my other skills. It has made me a little faster and my comfort level in hand-to-hand range is much higher. I asked a similar question to GM Piloy Roma, about what other martial arts complimented balintawak, and in short, his answer was that balintawak would compliment all the other arts, not vis versa. I am only beginning to understand what he meant.
  7. silat1

    silat1 Active Member

    Balintawak has some of the most practical handwork that is part of the system.. If it didn't, why would have senior members such as Jose Go use it as a basis to developing another art off of it.. This art is called Tat Kuntao and the following evolution of it called Goshoku (if memory serves me right). I have been practicing a variation of Balintawak for a while now and the empty hand work comes out irregardless of what aspect you are using, be it with a blade, single stick or empty hand.. All I would suggest is to experiment with the teachings that you have had so far and bring out the handwork to polish out the rough edges you might have.. After all, your arms and hands are just another variation of your stick work..

  8. yomitche

    yomitche New Member

    Thanks for the input.

    Jefsoriano brings up a good point about how the perspective of complimentary technique structures can be altered and force one to reevaluate the question from a new angle. Thanks!

    Silat1 - interesting observation about "subsystems" developing from Balintawak. It seems that many arts have flourished from seeds planted by Balintawak practitioners. Thank you for your observation.

    Arnisador pointed out that the level of empty hand training may be, and is in fact, variable depending upon the community in which one trains. This is true not only of Balintawak, but ANY intellectual/cultural tradition and suggests that every martial art may have variable levels of expression amongst the community, though bound together by common principles, techniques, heritage, etc.

    I have never heard of Tat Kuntao (I don't believe) but I appreciate the reference. Any other suggestions about complimentary systems that are perhaps a bit more "accessible?"
  9. Buwaya

    Buwaya Senior Member

  10. Rolando

    Rolando New Member

    A sample of Tat Kun Tou from our school, the basic seven step:

    Gokosha is separate from Tat Kun Tou (although both founded by the same person, Jose Go). It's considered to be an abstract system of martial art because of its lack of parry or blocks, it relies heavily on distance, centerline and broken rhythms.

    Just going back to your question, which empty hand that best compliment Balintawak. It's always compared to WC (a valid comparison) but, I was thinking more of boxing. You can really personalize your Balintawak with boxing movements. Bopping, weaving, footwork, jabs, hooks, fakes etc. all applies to Balintawak.
  11. yomitche

    yomitche New Member

    Cool clip, Rolando. Thanks for posting the link. I like how the empty hand skills appear almost "seamlessly" integrated with the Balintawak movement. Arguably, they may in fact be quite different, but at first glance at least, they appear to flow similarly.

    I kind of tend to agree about the WC and boxing comments. The WC helps with the flow and so forth, but I tend to stick a bit more than I should, perhaps because of all the chi sao I've done (controlling the centerline, etc.) Boxing skills seem to work real well with the Balintawak techniques, especially because of the range of the fight. I've had little Muay Thai training, but am thinking it might compliment well, although I'm a bit leery of kicking to ANY stickfighter's head or stomach! LOL!

    At any rate, the "natural" footwork of boxing and Muay Thai might work well with Balintawak, whereas more intricate footwork may not. Just an observation. Also, the "fluidity" of striking combinations and so forth seems to integrate well.

    I haven't had much exposure to Panantukan, etc., but wish I could access it a bit more. See how it works a bit better.
  12. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Yes, that's great! Balintawak has a natural feel that allows for this, it seems to me.
  13. silat1

    silat1 Active Member

    If you combine the bambooing of balintawak with your empty hand training aspects, it will be better than boxing IMHO. Utilizing the footwork and bambooing will give you the advantage of getting in and out of the attack zone with minimal movement.. I use the balintawak hand work and bambooing as a foundation for my defensive tactics program and so far I haven't had any problems with it failing me.. Combined with the Kuntao aspects, it gives you a seriously well defined fighting system.. Trust me it works
  14. vitaminD

    vitaminD New Member

    Hi silat1, could you clarify what you mean by bambooing?

    my wc allows me to understand structure and some trapping principles, but that's about all. imo western boxing has been the most useful. you get the same good hand speed, ability to dodge, head movement, natural stance, and you generate full power the same way using a stick.
  15. Mono

    Mono Member

    Thats an interesting Question...

    But I do not belive there is ONE (1) Answer:

    As has been stated here before...

    Wing Chun (and derivates) compliment the Trapping aspect of Balintawak very well... the CEM Group seems to have quite a large Influence from this Art in their Empty Hand Work:

    Boxing (any Form of it, and this to me includes Panantukan as well as Kick and Thaiboxing - just subtract any Fancy High and Jumping Kicks but keep the Knees, Elbows and low line Kicking) copliments the Arts Body Movement, Footwork etc.
    See this video for a Balintawak-Boxing Connection:

    "Grappling Arts" Such as Judo, JuJitsu, Dumog or even Wrestling can also be a great Supplemet because they teach you a lot about Balance (very usfull for Pushing and Pulling Lessons as well) and off Balancing, Tripping and of Course Joint Locks, Chokes and Takedowns of any sort - though I dont think the "classical circular Footwork" (as used in JiuJitsu or Aikido) would be of to much use... (not saying its "bad" or less effective - just doesnt fit the Balintawak Structure...)

    Bottom Line:

    In my oppinon, since Balintawak utilizes ANY Method of Fighting (Strikes, Thrusts, Slashes, Punches, Kicks, Sweeps, Tripps, Takedowns, Elbows, Headbutts, Locks and Chokes etc etc) ANY System that Specializes in whatever Aspect of the List, can in some part be a usefull addition to your Balintawak Training; you just have to Pick out the Parts that Compliment and realize the Parts that Contradict the Basic Balintawak Structure and Concepts.

    Just my 2ct :)

    Greetings from Germany,
  16. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer New Member

    There have been many people who look at Balintawak and say "oh, looks kind of like Wing Chun". On the surface, some of the Balintawak movements may resemble Wing Chun but, they're very different in application. There is much, much more in common between Balintawak and boxing.

  17. yomitche

    yomitche New Member

    Thanks for posting, Robert. I kind of tend to agree that Balintawak seems to have more in common with boxing than wing chun. I think Counter for Counter can be confused with Chi Sau (maybe because of both the range and "stickiness" of the two), and give the impression of a greater degree of similarity between the two than actually exists, but there is a considerable difference between them.

    A wing chun background helps with counter for counter, but does not necessarily mean that its empty hand skills compliment Balintawak more than any other art.
  18. yomitche

    yomitche New Member

    It's been a while since anything was posted to this thread, and I wanted to offer some of my recent experience.

    I've been working out at a boxing gym for a little while and have to admit that the structure compliments balintawak quite a bit. I have to make minor adjustments to deal with non weapon work in boxing and vice versa, but really, it's all good.

    If nothing else, the intensity of boxing workouts are insane, sometimes. The fitness aspect alone makes it a compliment to not only Balintawak, but also one's general welfare. You know, even if you are a relatively fit person (running, lifting, pullups, escrima training, etc.), and you feel like you are about to yack in the middle of the ring, that you are working at a whole new level of intensity.

    The problem with being a "stand your ground, and pound it out with 'em" kind of fighter (like me) means I have to learn a new mentality. I'm learning to finesse more now, and actually learning to box rather than just knock the shi* out of the other guy. I love to let it go, but am learning to mix it up a bit. It's just not worth it to do that for several consecutive rounds straight - too much abuse given and received. This realization compliments my Balintawak, from a general strategic perspective, if that makes any sense. Any finesse I develop in terms of body position, movement, slipping attacks, etc. is really beneficial. Also, because of all of the striking work I'm doing (LOTS of time on the heavy bag, plenty of time with focus mitts, etc.) I'm developing a new appreciation of the delivery of power, and my ability to do so - not only for a "killing" blow, but also in chains of combinations and so forth. It is good also, to train in a manner that is not "point" oriented. There is no "if this were a knife, you'd be dead." If you stop long enough to admire your work, you are jacked up in the ring. The problem with stick sparring, is that with protective gear, you lose a sense of reality, but if you trained without ANY protective gear, you'd lose (as the Dog Brothers say) your IQ. Kind of a catch 22. Boxing allows me to kind of bridge the gap, a bit.

    The boxing gym I go to is like something out of an old Rocky movie, in a delapidated building in a dying inner city area - and has pro folks that train there as well, which ensures an authenticity you can't get at a commercial training facility. Furthermore, there are a few competitive pro MMA fighters there, who have "classes" in MMA work, which I'll probably try to integrate into my regimen, so I can get the whole cross training package. It's really cool to be training with folks I can see on VS channels WEC and so forth! It'll be nice when I can integrate more leg work (kicks, etc.) and some grappling, so I'm not shocked when I deal with it.

    I guess the whole reason I do this stuff is to be the best I can be as a fighter/self defender, a protector of my family, a friend when one is in need, and a well balanced, healthy person. I am always open to good advise and would definitely suggest others (esp. Balintawak players) spend time boxing for a while, just to develop a new perspective in this wonderful art, if nothing else! Thanks for all the suggestions everyone, and thanks for being so explicit in your recommendation, Robert Klampfer!
  19. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer New Member

    You're welcome, Mitch. I'm glad to hear the boxing is working out for you (no pun intended). Training in Balintawak actually made me appreciate boxing more and I've become a boxing fan in the last few years. Pacquiao vs. Hatton is coming up in May!

  20. manhattan1

    manhattan1 New Member

    Hi all,

    I think Bujinkan (Ninjutsu) has many similarities to the Villasin Balintawak, one of the reasons is that, in Bujinkan there are several classic Ju-Jutsu Ryus and the Villasin style uses Jiu-Jitsu....
    I also found a other thing in common and that is the boxing parts from Villasin Balintawak, where it moves out of the way from a strike (bob and weave) and also get the power from the legs.
    This is very similar to Bujinkan, where we also tried to step out of the way of a strike and got the power from our legs in our techniques....
    I also notice the way of thinking in "dirty tricks", is also very similar within these two styles... :)

    PS. If i have to mention some differences it would be in the "Aliveness", which Villasin Balintawak has and Bujinkan lacks and "Special Weapons" from Bujinkan (Ninjutsu) also.... ;)

    Sincerly yours,

    Jan Jensen

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