Discussion in 'General' started by jayMa, Oct 22, 2006.
I was wondering which FMA has the most comprehensive and developed empty hand curriculum?
Probably the pure Empty-Hand Systems
Sikaran / Yaw Yan or (if its not just a myth) dumog.
I think CombatJudo, Karate, TKD, .. have influenced most of the FMAs Empty Hand Systems. Some FMAs empty hands are very specific / idiosyncratic though.
I like the Empty Hands of Pekiti Tirsia Kali. Also I've seen great empty hand skills in some Serrada-Systems (based on Max Sarmientos style).
Last but not least, there is Silat - not only Indonesian Silat, but also Filipino Silat / Kuntaw Silat with more or less indonesian and/or chinese influences. They have very specific empty hand systems of all kinds.
I will not speak for all the Sikaran systems but I know the one I trained in had a heavy influnce of hand techniques and was, of coures, a foot art first. Weapons where taught after empty hands
I like the empty hands of Modern Arnis, Kuntaw and Dan Inosanto's blend of Kali. The empty hands of the FMA are very dynamic and what is very nice is that they blend with using the blade or stick. That is what really makes them special in my opinion.
........Twist said it right ..."Pure empty hand systems"
Remy tought me lots of empty hand!
I had also empty hand from the Wetzel kuntao line & JKD!
As for the best--It is the situation-setting-time--how its deployed--
& most of all --was it used as formless so, you were not cloned by outside watchers!
To say 1 is better then the other is like say my box I fight in is better then your box!
How do you know it realy is good untill Life/Death reality kicks in & its used!
The best from the best masters may not work for you at that time!
Maybe just a simple eye jab was it!
We can credit kinamathai for pinching-biteing-scracting!
But other arts do that as well!
I would stress the best is not important--but the effective in verious
situations!Can it adapt--Can it flow--Can it exspand & contract--
Is it diverce in its ways--Is it deployable at the time with little effort on your end & great damage on the recieving end!
In the twelve areas of inosanto lacoste area 7 refers to Pangamut, Kamot-Kamot or Empty Hands 1. Panatukan (Boxing to include use of the Elbows) 2. Panadiakan, pananjakman, Sikaran (Kicking to include use of Knees and Shin) 3. Dumog, Layug, or Buno (Grappling and Locking) 4. Ankab-Pagkusi (Bite and Pinch) 5. Higot-Hubud-Lubud (“Tying-untying, and blending the two”, which is a close range trapping and sensitivity exercise) - http://www.geocities.com/jkdinstructor/kali.html?200710 Since i can't answer the question ill just narrow it down for you: if a version of the fma does not include these then it does not have the most comprehensive empty hands curriculum. You know i have heard rumors of purely panantukan and purely dumog schools without the rest of the system, what a joke.
You know I've heard that systems with a smaller curriculum are usually better in their specialized area.
IF - I dont know if there are actually any - there are people that learned and trained (i.e.) only dumog they're probably better at it then people who learned a big curriculum. - Like a pure BJJ-player is usually a better grappler then a MMAler.
As much fun as it is that the FMA, especially Inosanto/Modern Arnis/ ... have such big curricula, it also reduces the time you spend on each subject. So, in the end, a big curriculum will probably enhance your chances in a real fight - but it'll take a lot more time then for example training boxing.
It has its advantages and disadvantages - so I wouldnt just call something 'a joke' .
I think Twist raises some excellent points. As is often said, a boxer does very well with only 5 punches! I too have heard of dumog-only systems. If that's all you know how to do and you must find a way to make it work, you probably get very good at it...but I agree that it's good to be well-rounded too.
I think you miss understood, i totally agree that training any of the empty handed elements alone would have worth, i think training anything from the fma has worth i just question the worth in training it without the rest of the system when the system itself is designed to be trained as a whole. As you know all aspects of the fma compliment each other and simply training one alone in my opinion is a joke, as compared to focusing on one element as you say but still having the background in the rest of the arts. If you train purely to become a grappler or in this case in dumog then yes you will most likely be a better grappler, if you train purely in boxing or in this case panantukan then you will be a better boxer etc but to be a better FIGHTER then as Bruce lee said you better train everything. The only possible reason for this kind of curriculum i can see is if someone who already had a solid background in the arts wanted to purely learn the empty hands component, i just question the marketing strategy here when that would be such a small percentage of people compared to the amount of unexperienced people who stumble apon the class and not benefit from the entirety of the art.
Oh, I wouldn't want to train only striking, only grappling, or only weapons...but I do see the benefits of specializing!
Of course i guess i was talking more to twist, and your right besides specialising in empty hands does make the most sense since you dont want to go to prison
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