Edgar G. Sulite is the Founder of Lameco Eskrima

Discussion in 'Lameco' started by Guro Dave Gould, Jan 2, 2010.

  1. De Campo JDC-IO

    De Campo JDC-IO Junior Member

    Jakeshinryu,
    I don't want to derail this thread more than it already has so if you would like to continue this discussion privately I am more than happy to oblige you. I await your message...
     
  2. jakeshinryu

    jakeshinryu New Member

    I'm sorry if i am inadvertently posting threads that seems laughable to others but history sometimes were just based on author's point of view, just like The discovery of Philippines by Magellan, it was not him who first discovered Philippines because there were already people who discovered our country before his arrival just like the traders from the nearby countries, it was then his opportunity to wrote first and published his discovery.

    Just like the information in the net, it is not 100% reliable.

    Just like the origin of Arnis-Kali-Eskrima, it was obscure for us the exact date of its origin. No one can testify because no one will attest from the generation of arnis creation,it was just then hersays or speculations how it evolve.

    Nobody can judge PG Helacrio "Jun" Sulite, Jr. who he is, is it because he is not popular. PG "Jun" Sulite Jr. is just a low profile man just like others.
    Dr. Mark Wiley, the only writer and versatile martial artist who personally made research here in the Philippines wrote that PG "jun" Sulite Jr. was the protege of GM Caballero. Wikipedia states that Jose Caballero's notable students and protege were Irenio Olavides, Edgar Sulite and Helacrio Sulite Jr. We don't know who gave that information to Publish in wiki and how can that the author came to its publication by finality. Is it conflicting to Dr. Mark Wiley's research here in Ozamiz?
    Its up to you how you will judge it?

    Godbless us all!

    Jakeshinryu
     
  3. Sorry, I do try to keep out of "family" disputes but this is just plain wrong.

    One other book written by "Martial Artists and Writers" is:

    Cebuana Eskrima: Beyond the Myth

    It was written by Celestino Machacor (De camp JDC-10) and Ned Nepangue (Balintawak). They traveled / researched extensively for this work.

    http://cebueskrima.s5.com/index.html

    I'm sure there are others.

    Simon.
     
  4. jwinch2

    jwinch2 Member

    Rey Galang has one as well LINK. And, as a matter of fact, Wiley really has two.
     
  5. Yep. Loads by Martial Artists. When they write books don't they then become "Martial Artists and Writers"....
     
  6. De Campo JDC-IO

    De Campo JDC-IO Junior Member

    I never said the Helacrio Sulite Jr. was not a student of Noy Otek. My issue is that you claimed that Helacrio Sulite Jr was Noy Otek’s protégé. You seem to want to paint the picture that Ireneo Olavides was not when it is pretty well known that he was GM Caballero’s most trusted student.


    I actually don’t find your statement funny at all. As a matter of fact I find them insulting and that is why I continue to post. When I said that Manong Eric would just laugh it is because I am sure he would think this whole thing was ridiculous. Being recognized by the SEC doesn't necessarily mean that the style is worthy of being recognized as an effective art. That should be judged by people who have experienced it. If you say it is effective then who am I to say it is not. That is not the issue I have with your post.

    I am a little confused about your post above. When did Helacrio Sulite Jr train in Pekiti? If he met Tuhon in 1978/79 like you stated, then what skills would he have in Pekiti that Manong Eric would want to exchange for De Campo? Which son of Noy Otek are you referring to that was not taught the secret techniques? I will agree however, that not all of GM Caballero’s students were taught everything.
     
  7. Guro Dave Gould

    Guro Dave Gould LAMECO ESKRIMA SYSTEM

    Hi Guys,

    Having trained in De Campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal under Edgar Sulite I also have a vested interest in this system and the reputation of Manong Caballero. Let us not forget that the core of Lameco Eskrima and the confidense system of Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite concerning Impact Weapons, is De Campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal, concerning edged weapons it is Kali Illustrisimo, but I digress.

    It has always been clear from anyone who trained with Manong Caballero that Eric Olavides is the chosen protégé by Manong Caballero long before he passed away in 1987. It was accepted then and regardless of what Mark Wiley may have written it is accepted now. I have to believe that Manong Caballero should have known in his own mind who his chosen protégé and successor to his system was when he revealed this information in his last days more so than Mark Wiley, who was not present and only came on the scene many years later as a writer.

    If you read wikipedia carefully in this regard it states that Ireneo L. Olavides is the protégé of Manong Caballero and that Edgar G. Sulite and Helacrio Sulite Jr. are among notable students, not that all three are protégés of Manong Caballero as I believe you to be reading what is written.

    No one has ever had reason to doubt anything about Helacrio Sulite Jr. until you started posting here. Quite honestly the way that you are painting him here with your writing style is doing more damage to his reputation than good. In reading what you have written you would have us believe that no one elses influence played any degree in the creation of Lameco Eskrima other than Helacrio Sulite Jr.? that Helacrio Sulite Jr. since day one of their meeting was equal to Tuhon Leo Tortal Gaje jr. of Kali Pekiti-Tirsia? That Helacrio Sulite Jr. was so skilled in Kali Pekiti-Tirsia, never having trained in the system but rather only experiencing one sparring session with Tuhon Gaje, so much so that a complete stranger, Eric Olavides who supposedly witnessed only one sparring session, was williing to compromise the trust and confidense that he had gained from numerous years of training under Manong Caballero to trade his guarded knowledge of De Campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal to Helacrio Sulite Jr. for the smallest amount of knowledge of Kali Pekiti-Tirsia, moreso than choosing to receive a vast amount of knowledge directly from the Grand Master of the system himself (Tuhon Leo Tortal Gaje Jr.)? Then you would have us believe that Helacrio Sulite Jr. was the protégé of Jose D. Caballero and should have been the wrightful heir to his system over Eric Olavides who is the long time recognized protégé and successor of Manong Caballero, chosen by Manong Caballero himself?

    How can you read what has been written here and not understand why we would hesitate to believe you? As I stated before Helacrio Sulite Jr. can not have knowledge that you are writing such things about him and damaging his reputation to the degree that you are here on this public forum. He needs to come here and write on this forum to defend these allegations and make "HIS" intentions known. I can assure you that if you keep making these allegations you will succeed in only inflicting heavy irreparable damage on the reputation of the one that you claim to serve.

    Honestly how do we know that you represent Helacrio Sulite Jr.? You have not given your name, therefore no-one knows who you are, for all we know you could be someone from another system with an agenda to do harm to the reputations of Helacrio Sulite Jr., Edgar G. Sulite, Tuhon Leo T. Gaje Jr. and Manong Caballero for personal gain. As of now only if Helacrio Sulite Jr. comes forward and puts these allegations to us directly will I believe that this is coming directly from him. Not that these mistruths will be accepted as being true but at least we will know without a doubt that these fantastic allegations are being leveled against us directly from the source and not from someone with possible alterior motives.

    In the end when the dust settles:

    Lameco Eskrima will still go down in history as being founded by Edgar G. Sulite on September 25, 1981.

    The recognized protégé of Manong Caballero and successor of De Campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal will continue to be Eric Olavides.

    Tuhon Leo Tortal Gaje Jr. will still lay claim to being the Supreme Grand Master of Kali Pekiti-Tirsia being unequalled in his knowledge and abilities concerning said system.

    What will become of "Arnisudula" and the reputation of its founder Helacrio Sulite Jr.? Will he redeem himself and his reputation allowing his knowledge and creation ("Arnisudula") to go forward and speak for its own merits and achievements? Or will his reputation be bogged down and crippled by years of doubt and criticism born from the fantastic mistruths being spouted on this public forum? Only time will tell, but the question that you need to ask your self is does the end result justify the means by which it is met?

    I sincerely apologize to everyone for having to endure another round of this nonsense.

    Regards,
    Guro Dave Gould.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2010
  8. De Campo JDC-IO

    De Campo JDC-IO Junior Member

    I could not have said it better myself. Thank you Guro Dave for once again giving us thought provoking words of wisdom. Be well!
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2010
  9. jakeshinryu

    jakeshinryu New Member

    Believe it or not!

     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2010
  10. jakeshinryu

    jakeshinryu New Member

    Am I wrong? Judge me because i am nonsense?

     
  11. Guro Dave Gould

    Guro Dave Gould LAMECO ESKRIMA SYSTEM

    Respecting ones Teachers...

    Jakeshinryu,

    Jason from JDC De Campo-IO, whom I have had the pleasure of meeting some years ago, responded to you the following:

    *** "Being recognized by the SEC doesn't necessarily mean that the style is worthy of being recognized as an effective art. That should be judged by people who have experienced it." ***

    Your response to him in your previous post was the following:

    *** "You mean that arnis sulite sudula is not an effective art? Do you want to try our system regarding its effectivity? PG Helacrio Sulite Jr. did not become an international champion for nothing. Your knowledge of your system is just only a pinch to him!" ***

    Jason has never been anything but respectful in any of his posts on this forum, to include his response to you. He was simply making a statement that even though "Arnisudula" may be recognized by the SEC that in and of itself does not mean that they are an expert in said system. It only means that they "recognize" the existance of the system, as I am sure that they recognize numerous more systems and styles of Kali, Arnis and Eskrima in the Philippines. Which has no bearing on the superiority or inferiority of one system over the other. They simply recognize that "Arnisudula" exists, not that they have given it the endorsement of the SEC and have a vested interest in how effective that it may or may not be or to whom it is propagated.

    The teachers, students and followers of a system are the ones to best judge the effect of said system, as no one can attest to the effectability of a combat system until they have gained first hand knowledge of it through thousands of hours of experiencing it with the shedding of much blood, sweat and tears in developing its core principles. Something that the SEC could not possibly possess of any system never having trained in it personally and only judging it from the outside looking in.

    As a Certified Trainer and US Representative of JDC De Campo-IO under Mang Eric Olavides, Jason was just trying to get clarification regarding the statements that you made in reference to him (Eric Olavides). He has every right to defend the honor and reputation of his Instructor as do we all. I can not speak for Jason as he is his own man but from my perspective he was not "challenging" the effect of "Arnisudula" or was he attacking the reputation of Helacrio Sulite Jr. He was just simply trying to get you to reveal some hard varifiable facts which may substantiate your allegations against Mang Eric Olavides as being the Protege of Jose D. Caballero and successor to De Campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal, no more and no less.

    So please do not insult this forum or its readers. Remember that it was you that wrote first making these allegations against our systems, we were just defending the reputations and honor of our Instructors whom you have attempted to cast doubt upon by your statements. Thus far we have only asked for clarification from you and posed several lines of questions to you regarding that clarification process.

    Regards,
    Guro Dave Gould.
     
  12. gagimilo

    gagimilo Member

    Here's what happens whan somebody appears and writes with an agenda, instead of aiming at an honest conversation. The things get glanced over (or even completely missed), which than leads to people loosing their valuable training time to stand for something that really should not have been disputed in the first place...

    @jakshinryu

    You said that PG Helacrio Jr. is a low profile man...well, I guess he is not anymore! Still, it is doubtful if in this particular situation his coming into spotlight was a good thing. Would it not have been better to have prepared an actual presentation on the Internet (video clips, properly written articles), in order for those potentially interested to see for themselves the actual movements and utilitarian value of Arnisudula, instead of arguing the historical background and lineage?
     
  13. De Campo JDC-IO

    De Campo JDC-IO Junior Member

    I don’t seem to remember saying that Arnis Sulite Sudula was not an effective art. If that is how you interpret my words then I am truly sorry.

    Come on, are you serious? There is no need to make challenges over the internet.

    So now you are saying that PG Sulite Jr has knowledge in De Campo JDC-IO? I have no reservation in saying that PG Sulite Jr has much more knowledge in other styles of Arnis, Eskrima and Kali then me but I doubt he has even heard of De Campo JDC-IO much less have knowledge in it. But hey, if you say so then I have to believe you, right?

    You still have not answered my questions regarding the time PG Sulite Jr spent training with GM Caballero. Is that really so much to ask?

    So for the third time, what year did PG Sulite Jr train with Grand Tuhon Gaje for more than a month?

    I sincerely apologize to the members of the forum for dragging this topic on.
     
  14. Carol

    Carol <font color = blue><b>Technical Administrator</b><

    Agreed, there is no need for challenges over the internet, and on this site, issuing a challenge is a bannable offense.

    This applies to posts in the public forum, and it also applies to private messages sent through this forum and e-mails sent through this forum.

    - Carol
    - FMATalk Admin
     
  15. jakeshinryu

    jakeshinryu New Member

    to Jason Autajay of de campo

    regarding your question of time reference of PG Helacrio Jr. training under the tutelage of GM Caballero(De Campo 1-2-3 Orihinal),that was around 1978 t0 1980. He spent almost two years of rigid training under GM Caballero after his almost 2 months training in knife fighting under Tuhon Gaje but before Tuhon Gaje left Ozamiz,he made a few video clips from GM Caballero's actual training in his house of Malaubang Ozamiz City.
    Pertaining to your quote that i mentioned of previous thread regarding my question,"Do you to try our system regarding its effectiveness?"
    I am not challenging you to have a duel over the internet because it is unethical but my point is you have to study it if you want so that you can say if it is effective or not.
    I sincerely apologize if i made some threads that are annoying or shall we say disgusting into your side. Don't worry i am a good friend as your brother in fma.
    Maybe this is my last thread for you. Keep up the good work of protecting your system. I really appreciate it.
    Hope to meet you someday my friend.
    For those guys asking for our website, it is soon be open to the public.

    Regards,
    jakeshinryu-
    d small guy
     
  16. De Campo JDC-IO

    De Campo JDC-IO Junior Member

    Jakeshinryu,

    Thank you for clearing up the dates for me. I now have a clearer picture of your teacher's training in De Campo 1-2-3.

    I have no doubt that Arnisudula is an effective art and wish you the best in training. I am looking forward to some videos you can share. Since I live on the other side of the globe, this might be the only way I can "experience" it. Take care
     
  17. still lurking

    still lurking New Member

    I'm sure Edgar wouldn't want you to think I'll of his brother. Until Jun Sulite Jr. posts himself, I'd just rather shoot the messenger for now.
     
  18. Raul

    Raul Mananandata

    I second that.
     

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