Dumog and Pekiti Tirsia

Discussion in 'Pekiti-Tirsia Kali' started by equilibrium, Apr 24, 2007.

  1. equilibrium

    equilibrium New Member

    What do you guys think about Tuhon and his Dumog?

    There is certainly alot of that on video,which some people are very surprised by, one jiu jitsu guy, said oh, filipino martial arts, so he doesn't do any ground work.

    How do you think the ground work fits into the system of Pekiti Tirsia?
     
  2. Ventura

    Ventura -== Banned ==-

    Why don't you tell us what you think Jason.
     
  3. equilibrium

    equilibrium New Member

    I think it can be a good follow up to the other techniques...Ok, this guy is dead but he doesn't know it yet, let's take him down and lock him up until he does-or make sure that he is out of the fight for sure.

    When we were filming the video Combatant: Extreme self defense, Moni Aizik, who has judo/jujitsu background, made the comment, oh he does filipino martial arts so he won't be doing any ground work. Then Gaje proceeds to take almost everything to the ground and show muliple variations on what to do to someone in some of the painful positions.

    I think it is interesting, and also think it is probably the most likely way to get hurt training. We look like we might kill each other with stick but I think the takedowns are the dangerous thing.

    I have only done the dumog at seminars and can't say I have a great deal of understanding of it all. I never really got into any sort of ground fighting or wrestling, locks. I alway gravitated towards striking.

    Anyway, that's what I think, anyone else have any comments?
     
  4. Ventura

    Ventura -== Banned ==-

    Thanks Jason,

    Here's my $.02...

    Here's a little background. I'm a Brazilian Ju Jutsu (BJJ) purple belt. I've grappled with really good (Pan American, Copa Pacifica, Grappler's Quest, and US Open champions) brown and blackbelts.

    I've played dumog with Tuhon. He feels like you're grappling with BJJ blackbelt. His Dumog is top notch grappling.

    When you take someone down they're going to squirm and wiggle and be slippery like a fish. Ground control and ground sense is important even if you're on top. The principles of Pekiti apply directly to the ground game.
     
  5. selfcritical

    selfcritical New Member

    The groundwork i've seen in dumog has all been pretty solid, and covers most of the bases i've seen in BJJ and Shooto. In the clinch is where I think dumog really shines. It gives me all sorts of options in the range where MT and greco type strategies normally dominate, allowing me to keep on striking effectively the whole time. IN one of our nearby pekiti groups, we have a kid who's been doing wrestling and judo for about 6 years, and is pretty much drooling and getting to work dumog once he gets out of high school.
     
  6. leslie

    leslie Junior Member

    Tuhon's Dumog

    The Dumog of Pekiti Tirsia really is sound. It does fit the weapons strategies well and serves as a completion of the combative skills needed for survival. It's appropriate when either you have not been able to access a weapon or if you find yourself in a situation where a takedown or break would work well with weapon in hand. There are also options to control someone without maiming them. Certainly it has been tailored well to go with the Pangamut and Sikaran too.

    Aside from his early development in Dumog, Tuhon has spent a lot of time doing additional research in its traditions and practices in Negros Occidental. He has also spent time studying and comparing it with Pencak Silat in Indonesia. I have noticed that some of Tuhon's Dumog incorporates grappling positions and techniques whereas some of it resembles the locks and takedowns of Pencak Silat. Although the main goal is usually to remain standing and takedown the opponent, there are tactics which serve you if you are on the ground and he is standing as well as those needed if you are both down.

    I have spent many years in and out of Indonesia learning Pencak Silat myself, and I have found many of the techniques from Pekiti Tirsia Dumog to be the same or very similar. However, Tuhon's "flavor" tends to be more aggressive, and what he teaches tends to be something one can apply fairly quickly with a more simple skill set (without a reliance on very specialized attribute development or stylistic movements which is sometimes the case with Pencak Silat.)

    Tuhon explained to me that the similarities in the arts already exist because the arts come from the same cultural background. Although he accurately points out that Pencak Silat usually relies on more defensive or counteroffensive tactics and is largely not offensive. Except for the assassination camp style tactics I have seen in Indonesia, I would say this is largely true.

    As far as getting hurt easily in training, that's a true concern. Practicing how to hurt someone without actually hurting someone just sounds like a recipe for injury. You not only have to coordinate your own body as you do with striking, but you have to know how to manipulate someone elses at the same time. Aside from working with a partner you trust to have control, the key is being able to flow when you are the dummy.
     
  7. Ventura

    Ventura -== Banned ==-

    I have never met a Pencak Silat practitioner who had any effective ground grappling skill.
     
  8. leslie

    leslie Junior Member

    And that's the advantage of the Dumog, it incorporates more grappling skills. Although some styles of Pencak Silat incorporate some method of ground fighting, it is usually not what you would classify as grappling.

    I believe this is also because they developed under the assumption that a weapon will be involved, and therefore simply avoid the grappling range. Unless the Silat practitioner is highly skilled and has a diverse system, he will probably not be able to compete in a grappling match. He will be prone to expose openings better known to a grappler. Unarmed, and in a common grappling position, his intent will likely be to squeeze your testicles, jam his fingers into your throat, bite and try to disengage.

    Was that your experience?
     
  9. Ventura

    Ventura -== Banned ==-

    That's pretty much what happens. Highly trained silat guys get reduced to desperate untrained freakouts.

    They're usually in no position to employ these tactics and when they try they just get a worst beating. If any one ever tried to bite me... besides getting a crushed face. They'd probably lose the use of some of their limbs for a long time.
     
  10. Viking

    Viking New Member

    Nice post leslie,

    Is pangamut a part of dumog or is it practiced seperately.Whats dumpag?

    Regards
     
  11. leslie

    leslie Junior Member

    Pangamut

    Thanks Viking. Pangamut can be practiced separately, but it is often applied as a prelude to Dumog tactics. In general, one could refer to the Pangamut of Pekiti Tirsia as the empty hands striking methods and Dumog as the grappling, breaking and takedowns. Typically a stun should precede any complex technique or takedown and pangamut is often the method used for that stun. The term Dumpag is short for Dumog - Pangamut.

    Pangamut is also used alone and so all three terms are still used. The word pangamut generally refers to skills with the hands. In PTK, it mostly refers to the empty hands movements derived from the weapons. Pangamut would in other words be the direct translation of skills and coordination learned from the weapons to the empty hands strikes. Often one can practice the pangamut in similar flow drills or patterns like those of the weapons.

    I remember Tuhon explaining that the word may be derived from root words in Illongo or Hiligaynon wherein panga refers to “jaw” and mut is short for kamut, “hand.” The conjunction pangamut may have derived from refering to using the hands to grab or strike the jaw or head.


     
  12. Doc D

    Doc D New Member

    Hi Leslie!!!!
    Doc here from Dallas!!!
    I like the Dumog too....it is aggressive and reminds me of Guru De Bordes Minangakau Harimau in a couple of the techniques....Omar showed me some of the Dumpag quite a while back and I always enjoyed that too. I agree, I think the silat player has several other ways of thinking about combat than a pure grappling contest.....weapons....multiple attackers....so they just look at things differently . I came into "traditional" kick -punch martial arts from a grappling background and was always amazed at how many people did not give the grapplers their due ,thinking a snap kick or reverse punch would make them all fold. Understanding the world view of the kali and silat player though, I have not worried about it so much. The concern , for me ,is not about entering grappling matches....it is keeping a knife out of my eyes or stomach in a 7- 11 parking lot. I'm going to roam this site and read up on all the PTK discussion I've been missing.......woo , woo
    With Respect
    Doc
     
  13. Viking

    Viking New Member

    Thanks for the reply..great post
     
  14. leslie

    leslie Junior Member

    Hi Doc!

    Doc, it's great to have you here with us! I have always appreciated your analysis of the arts and often enjoy your posts on the Pencak Silat Discussion Board. Please come back and post here often.
     
  15. Viking

    Viking New Member

    http://realdefense.org/pekiti_dumpag.html

    An institute that teach pekiti dumpag. Interesting read.

    "Dumpag is truly the"Third Art". Not just striking and not just grappling but a unique art that blends Striking & Grappling together in different ways not seen before.Dumpag destroys the striker and devastates the grappler. In a way it is "Anti Grappling" as it Shuts Down the Shoot, Stops all kinds of Throws & Take-Downs and Dominates the Clinch.

    At Range Dumpag delivers powerful destructions to the Boxers attacks that mess up his game and allow you opportunities to attack.
    The weapons of Dumpag are developed with a rigerous and heavy conditioning. Slaps, Fists, Forearms, Elbows, Kicks, Knees & Head Butts are all used in fluid attacks. Dumpag develops a unique Sensitivity, Footwork and Base that allow the fighter to flow evenly between striking & grappling.
    Filipino Dumpag Offers Truly A Unique Technology And Different Way Of Fighting That Defeats The Best Thai Boxer, Wrestler Or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Black Belt. "
     
  16. blindside

    blindside student

    So what percentage of your time is spent on dumog?

    At each of Tuhon Gaje's seminars that I have attended, we have gone over several hours of dumog. Does this percentage (lets call it 15%, just making up a number here) reflect in your regular training? It doesn't in mine, but I'm a relative newbie to this art, so my time is probably best spent focusing on stand-up aspects.

    Jason, I thought it was interesting when you mentioned that you had only gone over it in seminars. Is this a reflectance of your preferences, your instructor's, or simply the curricullum structure you work under?

    I'd be curious how/when other instructors bring dumog into their teachings, (beyond the takedown, armlock, insert knife repeatedly, finishes that are commonly done).

    thanks,

    Lamont
     
  17. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I can't speak to PTK, but in my experience, dumog enters into many, many other techniques in little ways; e.g., while doing hubud you might quickly drag an arm to help slip in a headbutt/knee and then go right back to hubud. So, while people might not be dedicating so much time to isolating dumog and working explicitly on it, possibly they still are using it in a comparable amount of their training, just spread out over other areas?

    Sorry, I'm just back from class where this happened and "thinking out loud"!
     
  18. 408kali

    408kali Member

    I saw a demo video GT Gaje doing some Dumog, but I had already heard about it so was expecting grappling. Still, I was very, very impressed with it. I want to learn more about who teaches Dumog. Probably more than I expect. From what I understand, Dumog is comparable to Buno, another system indigenous to the P.I. but what sets Buno apart are the animal styles. My nephew is a blue belt in BJJ, and I took him to see Guro Andrew of the Garimot system. My nephew is a lightning quick learner, and has made MMA's his passion at a young age. Well, he picked up some technique from Guro and then tapped out his instructor!!! :D Needless to say I now am eager to see a Dumog or Buno player in the UFC. Maybe my nephew will take it with him there..

    Sorry if I went off-topic!

    I do have a question- does anyone know of a Dumog system incorporating animal forms? Buno has them, but I have never heard of Dumog having them.

    Also, nice to see some Texans here, my family and I are contemplating moving to Houston in the next few years. I've corresponded with Joe Galleon (Tio Pepe) and Johnathan Bolton of Houston Martial Arts Academy. Manong Joe teaches the Galleon Clan system of Escrima and is taking Bahala Na from GM Tony Somera. Very nice group of people.

    Peace, ~John
     
  19. Viking

    Viking New Member

  20. Zeph

    Zeph New Member

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