Double Baston 12 attacks

Discussion in 'Pekiti-Tirsia Kali' started by astenroo, Apr 10, 2010.

  1. DM03

    DM03 New Member

    Arnisador: You, of all people, get it. PTI is a stylization of a combat system. When one takes a system or systematic process and stylizes it according to their own notions of what seems appropriate or their own combative mindset, it perverts the system and the legacy of its development. For example, Jack tells blue a few posts up that its, like, totally cool to call it Upper 8 due to the fact that it kinda looks like an "8". Whatever works, baby. PTK is dead in the hands on instruction like that. It will barely survive another generation with an approach like that. Ever hear of that game called Telephone?

    Now I take for granted it is obvious that the physical movement itself is what a person will utilize. Nonetheless, Mr. Latorre would do well to maintain a standard for explaining the relation between those movements and their names that goes beyond "ah well, whatever works". This system can do better than that, for example, "the process for understanding the Doce Methodos is to first understand precisely the translation and definition of the title of each method. The tactics and techniques that comprise each method are not listed in numerically finite form but are rooted in the principles of primary attacks within each combative drill. If the fighter comes to a full and complete understanding for the methods and their principles, then the techniques will always be applied with the proper tactical execution".

    *silly diatribe alert*
    I take one glass of Kool-Aid and I put it on a table next to another glass of Kool-Aid. Where there was one, there are now two and I call that Addition, for one has been added to another to make two. Or, whatever, you could just say they're cuddling, seeing as how they are so close together now. Or maybe it looks like they're together-ing, no, um, how 'bout communing. Whatever it looks like to you. The system of mathmatics could not exist without the correct understanding between the word and its action, so too should be the standard for a real weapons combat system.
  2. DM03

    DM03 New Member

    Carol: Ok, account suspended due to challenge post. Now, please show me the "physical challenge" or the overt "threat" Real or perceived?? So let me get this straight, if Mr. Lamade misreads my statement and perceives himself threatened, that is recourse enough to suspend this account? Really? Let me paraphrase what I stated, I can assure you that you will not like the outcome of a certain conversation as it will not shine a favorable light on your position, so best to not bring it up. This is a threat? Fine, in the event I scared you Steve, I am sorry. But honestly, Admins, you jumped the gun on this one.
  3. DM03

    DM03 New Member

    Hubbard: Frankly, I never understood the need for a PTI section. We are talking about one FMA combat system, regardless of which factions are represented in it. Can FMATalk expect to create new sections in the forum for each variant or style of all the Filipino Martial Arts listed on it? This kind of thinking functions much the same way as saying, our school of skydiving advocates/teaches simply stuffing your chute into the bag and hoping for the best when you pull the cord. Since its "our school", it is correct. We do tend to lose a lot of students though.

    As much as folks hate to hear it, there are wrong ways of doing things and there are right ways of doing things. So, Bob, I'm not talking about which side of the road we're driving on - I'm talking about how to operate the bloomin' vehicle! There is a right way to drive a particular car, and there are wrong ways. This is how technology operates successfully. Savvy? Combat tech should be no different. The PTK system is no different.

    "Perfected over many generations at the cost of many lives"

    D. Marsh, re-read that statement and keep it in mind as you continue to advocate the "its cool for everyone to do their own thing, so long as you just have fun!

    Listen, I have fun in a boatload of other areas in my life - I study, train and continue in PTK to learn how to fight, win and survive. And sure, there is great satisfaction in that.
  4. jwinch2

    jwinch2 Member

    What he said...

    I also find it interesting that in other places people from various camps in PTK are able to work together and get along just fine, heck they even train side by side and learn from each other with no issues at all. Some, however don't seem to be able to do that. The Texas Kali Association includes members such as Erwin Ballarta listed as the chief instructor working hand in hand with people like Lelie Buck as president of the organization. I have a very hard time imagining someone with Leslie Buck's reputation being the president of a group with someone who he did not feel was teaching authentic PTK listed as the chief instructor. Not to mention, several other PTK practitioners with very solid reputations. That just doesn't add up.
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2010
  5. DM03

    DM03 New Member

    Latorre: The simple fact of the matter is I disagreed with you. You say one thing, I say it is incorrect and, more importantly, why it is so. I do not need to meet you to do so. And for pete's sake, I hope my post helps give those phantom folks you talk about a perspective on what they are being fed regarding the workings of this system. For these perspectives continue to bring ex-PTI practitioners knocking on the door, looking for something that makes more sense - Magino'os that left, knowing that there had to be more to this system. Kuyas that left, knowing the methodology to be flawed, overly complicted, and indulgent. I hope these posts help point the way to a systemology that makes sense and delivers on what it claims. Folks will choose as they see fit, and that is of course guided by the predilections of their own mindset and make up, but they should know that the ceaseless study of techniques will not save them. Principles that develop the correct attributes, focused by the proper strategies and delivered through appropriate tactics - now that just might do it.

    And while the definitions of terms in this system is important to me, I don't necessarily sweat it if I miss an "I" in Tirsia once every couple o' hundred times I've written the word down. But ok, wow. Got me on that one, Jack.
  6. DM03

    DM03 New Member

    Jason, while I understand your zeal in general, the paragraph you wrote is loaded with assumptions and a general lack of understanding of the historical connections between certain parties. Solid reputations often only appear as such because that is the image certain folks would like to convey, even while it belies certain other realities. Now, you could fully address your own puzzlement - but it would require you do a lot of digging, a lot of networking and research with a lot of folks from all the PTK groups. It is quite an investment of time. I know - I have spent the last few years doing just that. It is critical to get ALL sides of a story, Jason - from there one can form their own conclusions.

    Eric Knauss had the good sense to call what he ended up doing something different - hence my original statement about those that just "take up the name". Did Ballarta know the Pasugat/Pasunod flow that underlies the foundation and advanced systems, my research tells me that while he was very skilled, no he did not.

    Tom Bisio and the Doce Methodos... now that is a different story.
  7. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Darth Vindicatus Supporting Member

    The bottom line here is that there are -2- Pekiti forums because there has been significant discord between a few vocal members of the 2 main organizations. The solution was to split them. If you have a problem with this, take it up with the forum owner Datu Tim Hartman. I just keep the server serving and software softwaring here.

    While you are technically correct, "combat tech should be no different." you are wrong stating "The PTK system is no different.". I'm afraid it is. This section is not intended for the discussion of Leo Gaje's PTK system, but the PTI PT system. While they share a name, and a core and a number of techniques, at the end of the day, they are different arts. There was a "fork in the road, and both went down different forks". You can define the relationship however you want, brothers, cousins, red headed step child, bastard son, whatever. Don't care. But at the end, if they call an upward strike #5 and you call it #4, here it IS #5. Rather than argue here, go enrich the PT section. Or don't. I really don't care. But Mr. Latorre is welcome to teach on my floor any day.
  8. jwinch2

    jwinch2 Member


    I appreciate the thought out response.

    In order to make sure I am understanding you correctly, are you suggesting that Leslie Buck's reputation is not deserved? Or, were you referring to Erwin Ballarta or even someone else with that statement? Or, was I misunderstanding you entirely?

    I don't want to misinterpret your comments which is so easy to do when only dealing with the written word on forums such as these.

    Thanks again,

    Last edited: Apr 16, 2010
  9. kaliman1978

    kaliman1978 New Member

    does it really matter that the 1st generation guys knew Pasugat/Pasunod? Really? What they did know is how to fight and that's what it all boils down to in the end can you go when it's time to get things done. You can know all the drills in the world but if when you put the headgear on you can't do anything but toe point and hit my hand like a tag game then the knowledge is useless.
  10. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    Dear Dino,

    Nope - not scared of you. Why should I be? Didn't say it was a physical threat and didn't contact the monitors about you either. Maybe we should just get together and talk. So, the next time you're in the NYC area drop me a line (and with your permission I'll contact you the next time I'm in the Tampa area) and we can have a beer and talk about it.

    I regret dragging our mutual friends into the conversation as my intention was that they could talk some sense to you. Obviously either they didn't or they did and you've chosen to interpret their words in your way. I've no way of knowing until I talk to them myself and then I'll be clear. I would think that the conversation contained three logical possibilites:

    1. Jack Latorre teaches the PTI curriculum. Well, we already know that and we understand your opinion of the matter.
    2. They don't think much of Jack.
    3. They don't think much of me.

    So what. Hanging out "awkward and uncomfortable results" like a giant pinata and then saying you're not going to swing is disingenous, and probably caused them no small source of embarrassment. I've PM'd them both and apologized for dragging them into this mess, but at any rate they can tune me up the next time we train together!

    As far as the larger issues go I really don't think there's much to talk about. What you seem to be missing is the understanding that a large part of your argument has been orchestrated in the recent past by a few individuals interested in consolodating their position within PTGO, to the sorrow and detriment of many (both inside and outside PTGO) who go back together some 20 or 30 years as friends, training partners, and business partners. I spoke recently witih a PTGO instructor who's heartsick at the kind of damage that this kind of deliberate, self-serving rancor can produce. But I bet you don't get it - because you've got what, 5 years as a Pekiti teacher under your belt? How many is it?

    Here's hoping you get some perspective. As I said above, I'd be happy to talk about it with you face to face if you're willing. This "death of 10,000 bytes" debate is fruitless.


  11. blue

    blue New Member

    Setting aside differences in execution, I am curious to know what your answer would be to the original question: why are the patterns named the way they are? Is there added value in calling something "Upper 8" instead of "Heaven 6" (as some systems call a similar pattern) beyond mnemonics? I know that some kung-fu systems have a specific concept embedded in the name ("Monkey steals the peach"), but the "tactical" advantage of calling it an "8" over a "6" eludes me. Perhaps there is a hidden beat?
  12. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    We separated the PTK section into a PTI section and a PTK section precisely to limit inter-faction discussions that shed more heat than light. Despite the large number of Modern Arnis orgs. and the acrimony between them, we still haven't had to do that there.

    -FMAT Admin
  13. DM03

    DM03 New Member

    Bob Hubbard:

    I thought the solution was just to ban them, which they did.

    For someone that just keeps the software software-ing and seems really not to care, you have interesting points to add. Ok I see, all you have to do is train with the PTK Grand Master and Heir for some period of time, decide you will be taking up some different fork in the road and you too can claim to lead a Pekiti-Tirsia System that stands equal to the original. I see. Generations of Tortal family leaders just turned in their grave. Thanks Bob, and good night.
  14. DM03

    DM03 New Member


    I direct you to your statement, "Not to mention, several other PTK practitioners..." My response about solid reputations was geared to this particular sentence of yours. Mine is simply a statement about the tenuous nature of what we hear of other people's reputations and how that information is ascertained. Often, there is more going on behind the scenes than what is readily apparent, and what is readily apparent is easily controlled. So, like I said, go talk to everyone involved (or as many as you can - in this day and age its not that hard), ask questions, do searches, pay attention, take notice of certain dynamics, and have a good memory. Then draw your own conclusions. I stand by mine.
  15. jwinch2

    jwinch2 Member

    Thanks for the explanation.
  16. DM03

    DM03 New Member


    Dude, don't you remember what I said about the 1st generation guys the last time you and I did this dance? Remember I said the original training of Tuhon produced exceptional fighters...Bisio, Ballarta, Knauss and Gelinas among them? Is what they learned the equivalent of the PTI curriculum? No. Here is the point - However Grand Tuhon chooses to manifest the authentic system of Pekiti-Tirsia, via whatever training platform he chooses, i.e. 64 attacks, tri-v, the ability to produce exceptional results always remains with him. That is why he is the Grand Master. HE is Pekiti-Tirsia, toe-pointing and all. Now, think on this for a many did he train in the 64 attacks? Hundreds? Thousands? How many has he trained in the Tri-V? Hundreds? Thousands? How many did he actually teach the Doce Methodos/Contradas to? I only know of two that can claim that...Bisio in the former and Waid in both.
  17. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Darth Vindicatus Supporting Member

    Actually, at this point I'm just declaring you an obvious agenda troll and washing my hands of the discussion. As I said, take your quite obvious issues up with Hartman.
  18. DM03

    DM03 New Member


    I wonder if you ever hear yourself? Do you have the impression, and I think you do, that you have some sort of wisdom to bestow upon a neophyte? Like an, Aw shucks kid, let ol' pappy here let you in on a thing or two.

    The fact is that you have no idea what I have learned in the last 5 years, what information I've come by, or what I know regarding this system, its politics or its history.

    Hubris, keep this word in mind. As far as it concerns my original post in this thread, in lieu of debating the technical points at hand, you, sir, chose to name people. You, sir, hung them out and continue to do so now... even as your last post makes apologies for having done so in the first place. It is your hubris that brings them anywhere near this discussion, with the notion in your head that they could talk some sense to me. I mean, do you hear yourself? I'm done mentioning them. You should consider doing the same.

    What you seem to be missing is the understanding that the only one responsible for this "kind of damage" is Bill. I speak consistently to practitioners (both inside and outside PTGO) who are mad as hell they spent volumes of time and money learning the wrong thing from PTI. Here's what you don't get - I am far less concerned with whose heart is broken when these notions are challenged and the boat gets rocked. What is of utmost concern to me as far as the system of Pekiti-Tirsia is concerned is to see it preserved and executed as it was meant to be. And while in this era of relative choices a one-or-the-other scenario is unpopular, you are either a steward of the actual system or you choose to insert yourself and in the process dismantle, dilute or eviscerate it.

    I'll look you up for that beer once I get another ten years or so under my belt. Wouldn't want to be wasting anymore of your time.
  19. DM03

    DM03 New Member

    This thread always could have stuck to the discussion of the obvious technical points at hand, but as always no one seems to want to do that. Ah well, nevermind. I'm almost done anyway.
  20. DM03

    DM03 New Member


    Hello - the tactical advantage is demonstrated in actual execution. In so far as the term Upper 8 instead of Heaven 6, the system is based in realism and not confined to the movements of animals, natural or celestial elements, or mythology. It specifically addresses combat and warfare through the analysis of true, tangible and functionally correct human characteristics and capabilities.

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