Double Baston 12 attacks

Discussion in 'Pekiti-Tirsia Kali' started by astenroo, Apr 10, 2010.

  1. astenroo

    astenroo New Member


    I am in the middle of learning the basic 12 attacks of double baston. Now I have a few questions concerning the "nomenclature"

    The first six sets are named: Broken 6, Upper 8, Lower 8, Reverse 8, Fluid 8 vertical cuts and Butterfly. As of the five first: why are they named the way they are?

    I am just curious because of my involvement in the recently founded local PTI training group. When we get to double baston, I am sure someone will ask "Why are they named the way they are?".

  2. Jack Latorre

    Jack Latorre Siyam

    "A rose by any other name..."

    Hello Astenroo/Alex--

    To teach others, sometimes labeling is very helpful.

    "Upper 8", although being a series of 6 strikes, gets it's name from how it was initially taught to beginners who had problems with coordination. It was broken down into 8 motions, rather than 6 strikes. Esstentially it is named after the trraining-wheels version of its pedagogy.

    "Broken 6" doesn't mean it doesn't just denotates the flow is slightly broken from the doble baston norm of "Upper 8" the use of the payong/umbrella movements.

    "Lower 8" is named simply because of the inclusion of lower strikes to the opponent's knees, as seen in the prefix of the Break-In/Break-Out drill (Pasak Lo'ob/Pasak Labas).

    "Reverse 8" is then the reverse of the standard "Upper 8"...ascending strikes from angles 3 and 4, as opposed to descending strikes from angles 1 and 2.

    "Fluid 8 Vertical Cuts" are just that...essentially what one sees in "Upper 8" but delivered with very thin angles to appear basically vertical in delivery (and with the associated power).

    As in any martial pursuit, the nomenclature is a mnemonic device to help is the functional and purposeful movement that ultimately matters.

    I hope this helps.

    Jack A. Latorre
  3. astenroo

    astenroo New Member

    Hi jack!

    Yes, this was very helpful :) One more question, though. The upper 8 has six strikes (eg. 1-2-2-1-2-2), so there we basically have 6 of the 8 movements. Are the two remaining movements sidesteps?

  4. Jack Latorre

    Jack Latorre Siyam


    Negative...the eight movements involve not only the strikes, but incorporate the associated chambering so that beginners could understand where their hand needed to be at any one time.

    From the right side chamber...

    -Rgt. hand #1
    -Rgt. hand pulls to left side chamber/Lft. hand #2
    -Rgt. hand #2 jab/Lft. hand pulls to lft. hand chamber
    -Rgt. hand pulls back into left side chamber

    Repeat now from the left side chamber, reversing the strike orientations. And now you have 8 movements...more or less...

    Once the coordination is achieved, then things like speed, timing, footwork regarding relative position to your opponent, footwork regarding power generation, accuracy towards a moving platform, accuracy from a moving platform, et cetera are the things to be developed next.

    Good luck in the training and let me know if there's anything else I can answer for you.


    Jack A. Latorre
  5. astenroo

    astenroo New Member

    ah yes of course :)

    Thank you,

  6. DM03

    DM03 New Member

    Your description of Upper 8, Broken 6, as well as Reverse 8 is incorrect.

    Upper 8 is not so designated to be a crutch for beginners with coordination problems. Nearly all Doble Baston attack patterns present similar challenges to initiates. The 1st and 2nd counts of Upper 8 are specifically executed with a two-count motion, before the 3rd count is executed. This actually presents students with a tactically superior understanding of “where their hands need(ed) to be at any one time”. I will not discuss the purpose of this because it is formulated to defeat other strikes through its manipulation. Your angles of attack are also incorrect – count 3 of the Upper 8 attack pattern is a reverse, or upward, Diagonal backhand strike and not a #2 downward Diagonal strike. This would be a left hand #4 strike, from the 5 Attacks of Tirsia Corto. This applies also for count 2 of the Broken 6 attack pattern. Likewise, there is no Reverse 8, or “reverse of the standard Upper 8” because you cannot duplicate the attributes of the 1st and 2nd counts of Upper 8 with reverse Diagonal strikes.

    Additionally, “Fluid 8/Vertical Cuts” is an incorrect identifier of the Seguidas strikes with Doble Baston. This is a six (6) count attack that is actually two Diagonals and then a Vertical slash. You correctly stated that these strikes can be delivered almost Vertical hence the “Vertical Cuts” title. More power, however, is generated with Diagonal strikes than Vertical strikes, and it is used to finish your opponent with fast, multiple slashes after disabling one of your opponent’s weapons. This attack is also executed with Reverse Diagonal and Vertical strikes, but again incorrectly identified as Reverse 8. Seguidas is the method of Centerline attacks (with other advanced attacks as well) and therefore the appropriate title for this Doble attack.

    Your reference to the nomenclature as pneumonic devices appears short-sighted. Far from being a simple memorization tool, the PTK system teaches that the nomenclature is the KEY to understanding the purpose and function of the Attack systems of Pekiti-Tirsia – and one sees this applied consistently throughout the Doce Methodos, Contradas and Contra-Tirsia Dubla-Dos. In this specific instance, the Attack patterns of Upper 8, Broken 8, and Lower 8 are all part of the Tirsia Corto method of the Doce Methodos (the original and authentic systemology of Pekiti-Tirsia) applied with Doble Kalis/Baston. They represent the Fluid 5 Attacks, Broken 5 Attacks and Break-In/Break-Out Attack forms, tactics, and techniques of Solo Kalis/Baston respectively. This also clearly highlights the true transferability of the Foundation and Advanced methodologies across any weapon category – the hallmark of a highly developed weapons combat system. The System Outlines can be found on this page.

    Your instruction may be the style used by PTI, but it is not the execution specifically taught by Grand Tuhon Gaje, the Supreme Grandmaster of the Pekiti-Tirsia system, which all students of Pekiti-Tirsia deserve to know.
  7. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member


    I doubt whether any beginner-level student reading this thread understands a word of what you are saying. There is a larger issue here, moreover: you are confusing the use of vocabulary with the application of technical skill. Neil Caullife and his student (these are friends of yours, I believe?) came up to PTI's summer camp last year, and worked out with me, Jack Latorre, and other PTI members. Perhaps you can ask them whether Jack knows what he's talking about?


    Steve Lamade
  8. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    ...which seems quite appropriate, as this is the PTI forum...
  9. DM03

    DM03 New Member

    Steve. Ok, let’s try this again.

    I would not normally feel the need to resort to bullet points, but a pattern seems to be emerging where your comprehension of my posts on this forum is spectacularly poor.

    • The post was not intended for beginning-level students.

    • There is no indication that it is addressed to beginning-level students.

    • The post addresses Mr. Latorre, whom I assume is an experienced PTI instructor, and his descriptions.

    • Alex/Astenroo had Mr. Latorre “explain” the nomenclature not once, but twice – beginning-level students are pesky like that, with their whole “not getting it the first time”…thing.

    • Granted, I would not at all be surprised if the post confuses beginning-level PTI students.

    • The useful understanding of the “vocabulary” is the KEY to the tactically correct application of the technical “skill”. So no, I am not confused on that point.

    • I have to assume Mr. Latorre knows what he is talking about, as he identifies himself as a PTI instructor and he is discussing material from the PTI curriculum.

    • What is in question is Mr. Latorre’s understanding of the actual Pekiti-Tirsia system and its training methodology, based on the instruction he has received.

    • As to the individuals we seem to mutually know, let me suggest we forget you brought that up, as I can assure you pulling on that thread will yield you an awkward and uncomfortable result.

    It is an affront to those who train, teach and preserve the authentic system of Pekiti-Tirsia for others to take up the name and augment, change, rearrange or otherwise distort and mismanage this system for lack of having continued or completed their training in this system, or with the idea that their own interpretations stand equal to the actual methodology – tested, proven and validated over generations. Pekiti-Tirsia International chooses to operate as if the Grand Master of Pekiti-Tirsia is no longer with us, when in fact he is alive and well and, more importantly, still accessible and available in 2010 to any practitioner and instructor for the continued magnification of their understanding of PTK and their overall development. Any organization that continues in this fashion only moves further and further away from the source material of this combat system and from truly actualizing its purpose, principles and practices.
  10. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member


    Generally when someone offers you food for thought it's a good idea to think about what you're going to say before you say it. I thought that you and Neil were friends and that therefore you might be inclined to listen to reason, but what we get from you (how many times is this now?) is yet another silly diatribe. And are you actually threatening me? Please stop, sweetheart.

    Let's just agree to disagree lest we embarrass our teachers any further...


  11. Carol

    Carol <font color = blue><b>Technical Administrator</b><

    PTI vs. PTK has already been discussed ad nauseum. Challenge posts are against the rules and can result in loss of membership.

    Play nice, folks, or take the debate off of FMATalk.

    - Carol
    - FMATalk Admin
  12. kaliman1978

    kaliman1978 New Member

    it's post like this that makes the world think that ptk guys are a bunch of jerks and cannot get along with one another. This is old already. I don't know if it is realized that post like this gives ptk practitioners worldwide a reputation that is certainly undeserving, and that reputation is one of arrogance which isn't the case by far for alot of my brothers in the art. If you would like to train PTI by all means do so and HAVE FUN DOING IT. Tuhon Bill is certainly one the many skilled 1st generation students of Grand Tuhon Gaje and I am sure has ALOT to offer. Also if you would like to train doce methodos I advise you to do the same and have fun. To imply that one camp is "authentic" and the other camp isn't is a sign of insecurity and arrogance. I mean are you saying that what Tuhon Bill, Erwin Ballarta, and Eric Knauss and others learned was not authentic? that is silly. Build a bridge and get over yourself. Let's all get along and play nice or not play at all. If things are like this now just imagine how it will be when the old man is gone.....sad!
  13. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Darth Vindicatus Supporting Member

    Traditionally, when you have a section dedicated to a specific art/org/etc the way that group does things is "right". That means in the PTI forum, PTI's methods are "correct". If you are from the other PT family, this site offers an area for them to discuss and be "correct". This functions much in the same way that one can visit England and drive on the left, or Canada and drive on the right. You are still driving, just which is the right way to do so will vary based on your location. You don't go to England and drive on the right, then bitch about everyone else doing it "wrong" there. It's just not proper. Savvy? Good. Then lets get back to discussing hitting people in the head with sticks and sharp things. ;)
  14. artvilla2

    artvilla2 New Member

    greetings ! as a point of clarification I wish to inquire as to how a challenge was implied by Dino in his thread, I did not read anything to that effect(phyiscal). Kindly refer to the said statement, perhaps review and carefully read what he was trying to express. From my humble POV He was trying to avoid divulging any further discussion in relation to the suggestion by Mr. Lamade. He did speak with the individuals concerned and decided to keep their feedback to himself. A suspension might be too harsh a move .I agree that we will have our differences in opinion but perhaps a warning would suffice. I dont make the rules in this forum and you have the authority to do as you deem appropriate. let us continue to learn and appreciate the art, friendly discussion with respect and understanding....

    salamat Po,

  15. Jack Latorre

    Jack Latorre Siyam

    Hello All--

    I come back to this thread and find this train wreck. Sorry your genuine question garnered the negativity, Astenroo/Alex...

    Others, notably "kaliman1978", have said it already. Pekiti-Tirsia is a great system, regardless of political affiliation. However, the over-zealous posting hides that, at times.

    There are folks who have drawn a line and chosen a side. Fine. Whatever.

    There are folks who simply choose an opportunity to study whatever they can in an effort to see both sides of the coin. No harm, no foul. I certainly don't make them choose. They are intelligent enough to shop around to train and live freely.

    And then there are folks who may be on the fence...who may be new to the FMA scene or unsure of the unfortunate political land mines inherent at times. Posts like Mr. Martinez's help make their decisions much more easily. And the decisions are not so much based on who has the real "secret handshake". It is based on whether or not one even HAS to learn a "secret handshake" at all...or whether they suspect they may be taken for a ride...or have to drink this week's chosen Kool-Aid flavor. It's a problem in far too many martial endeavors unfortunately.

    As far as me being an experienced PTI instructor, that's for others to decide.

    And you can question my actual understanding of the Pekiti-Tirsia system as much as you'd like. It really matters not. The PTI versus PTGO is a false divide for most folks. But I do appreciate you chiming in and trying to invalidate my credentials without ever meeting me. The folks that visit these forums do read these things...and form their own decisions. And they make them more easily with your help.

    Be well.

    Jack A. Latorre
    PTI Mataas Na Guro


    By the I know "vocabulary" is "key" for you, you misspelled your art on your website... You should fix that.

    You're welcome.
  16. blue

    blue New Member

    Getting back to the original question, an alternate explanation I heard about why the "upper eight" is named "eight" is that it looks like a figure 8 when done quick and flowing (figure 8 on its side, to be exact). I make no claim that this is PTI, PTGO or even PT in origin...
  17. Jack Latorre

    Jack Latorre Siyam


    It certainly could be...and there's nothing wrong with that analogy either. No need for stepping on eggshells. If it has pedagogical use that helps the student understand, sure. What matters is if you can stop the bad guy with it under duress.

    And I don't think the bad guy will ask you who you studied with or who you are affiliated with either.


    Jack A. Latorre
  18. TuhonBill

    TuhonBill New Member

    I want to second what Bob Hubbard said. Let's have some sense of prospective here guys. Pekiti-Tirsia is a martial art, not a religion. Let's not argue what is or is not official dogma. Furthermore, this is a PTI forum. Not too long after I separated PTI from PTGO I began calling what I teach the “Pekiti-Tirsia International System,” since it really is different from the Pekiti-Tirsia Tuhon Gaje is currently teaching. The flip side of this is that the PTI curriculum is as close as I can humanly make it to what I learned under Tuhon Gaje in the 70's and 80's. I teach the techniques and methods I grew up on. I enjoy teaching them and my students seem to enjoy the way I teach them. If you don’t like the way I teach, then you are free to go learn from someone else.

    Guro Jack's description of double stick techniques accurately reflects how I taught him these techniques, and that description is EXACTLY how Tuhon Gaje taught me double stick basics when I first learned this material back in the 70's. The applications Dino wrote about are taught in the counter to counter drill phase of learning these basics. However, let’s try to remember that the original question Alex asked was about nomenclature, ie, why is something that looks like a six count movement called an “8.” Jack gave Alex the reason I gave him just as I gave Jack the reason Tuhon Gaje gave me.

    I recently posted a new video on my YouTube channel. It shows Tuhon Gaje's endorsement of me and PTI back in 1996. In the video you'll hear Tuhon Gaje state that he has reviewed and approved the curriculum of PTI (a curriculum that I still use to this day). At that point in time, in addition to a written curriculum, Tuhon Gaje also had the 5 original Lionheart videos I made in 1993 as well as several basic Pekiti-Tirsia videos I made for my students in the early 90's (in addition to all the times Tuhon Gaje saw me teach in the 80’s). You’ll also hear Tuhon Gaje say that I teach the complete Pekiti-Tirsia system “without addition or subtraction.”

    I had avoided posting this video for many years. There didn’t seem much point in opening up old wounds. But maybe the video will help prevent our wasting time on arguments about who is more “authentic” when we could be having much more productive discussions.

    Tuhon Bill McGrath
  19. DM03

    DM03 New Member

    Lamade: Am I actually threatening you? Please. Lando Calrissian once said, "build a bridge and get over yourself." This should help make it clear - let's assume I have already spoken with the individuals you mentioned. Now, read what I wrote again. Generally when someone throws you a bone, its a good idea to take it.
  20. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise Senior Member Supporting Member

    Thanks Bill for your information I know that everyone here appreciates it in the Pekiti Tirisia International forum.

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