Does anyone train with a whip?

Discussion in 'General' started by Carol, Jan 3, 2007.

  1. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    Two whips that I've started to play with. The first is a 8 foot (11 foot with tail and popper) kangaroo hide bullwhip made by the Australian Stock and Saddle Company in Malibu, California:




    [​IMG]

    The second is a manilla rope whip given to me recently by John Hoey of Warriors Eskrima, Dublin, Ireland:

    [​IMG]

    Best,

    Steve Lamade
     
  2. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    Whip (follow-up)

    I posted this on another forum and thought I'd include it here, as well:

    Best,

    Steve Lamade
     
  3. Baddmojo

    Baddmojo New Member

    That's funny this thread got started because I've added flexible weapons to my personal development in the last several years. A number of the FCS instructors do train the whip, personally I have too many toys in my garage already and besides scaring the neighborhood kids I dont have much use for them. But, I do own a authentic Filippino horse whip that I train with infrequently, and I do train with my Sjambok(South African whip). They are excellent tools to supplement your training. I definitely recommend adding it to your repertoire.
     
  4. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    Bull Whip

    San Miguel Eskrima includes whip technique but I was not formally taught. Recently I picked up Anthony DeLongis' instructional DVD's and have put in about 10 hours of practice at this point. Lots to correct based on what I see so far but I think it's a good start. Later on I'll add a clip based on the corrections that I think need to be made, and I'll add a clip of the same sequence using a Filipino rope whip.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfPm8BL3M-o

    Best,

    Steve
     
  5. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    The moves you're making certainly look like FMA motions. How's it feel to you? Natural?
     
  6. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    natural action

    It's starting to get there. I figure after a couple of thousand hours...

    The point of the whip in San Miguel Eskrima is to transfer the ability to generate relaxed power back into the stick and blade work. It's an attribute-builder, as are many of the other secondary weapons in the system. Like I said, it's a work in progress.

    The "feel" of the rope whip is very different and this is probably due to the fact that the rope is connected to the handle through a ring that swings and pivots around. I'm finding that I have to use my arms a lot more to keep the connection between my body and the whip going. I'll post a clip when I get the chance.

    Best,

    Steve
     
  7. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I had wondered how different the rope whip felt. It seems to me like it'd be a less effective weapon, despite the added weight.


    I've heard practitioners of other FMAs say that the main value of the whip is in building attributes for esp. knifework.
     
  8. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    Rope Whip

    Both the leather bull whip and the rope whip are formidable weapons in their own right. Given that the rope whip has knots tied in at the end it will tear open skin pretty well and depending on the weight it carries will delever a pretty heavy percussive force (the tip is travelling faster than the speed of sound). I think that if you got hit across the face with one by someone who knew what they were doing you'd get knocked down and wouldn't want to get back up. Targeting softer targets like the eyes, throat, etc. is a separate issue.

    Re. the bull whip: it's actually heavier and but easier to control due to the continuation of the handle with the shaft of the weapon, and it has a core that helps the whip maintain its shape. The rope whip is attached to the handle by a small loop that changes the "feeling" of the connection with the hand and thus the timing, etc. I can get it to move - but it takes a lot more arm movement.

    I'll post a clip later of "what not to do with a bullwhip." Suffice it to say: wear eye protection.

    With respect to attribute-building: the whip is a fine tool for developing the ability to project one's intention into the tip of the weapon. Momoy Canete thought it was an excellent method for both this and for developing relaxed power with respect to using a whole-body connection with the stick and dagger. It's interesting to note that Abner Pasa in the "MBaKAM" YouTube clip makes essentially the same point.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81xAaa4dCc4

    Best,

    Steve

    Best,

    Steve
     
  9. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

  10. tellner

    tellner New Member

    I really appreciate the skill involved with using a whip and the craftsmanship that goes into a good one. I don't practice using them as weapons. They just don't have that much real application. If I were a stockman it might be different.
     
  11. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    Rope Whip

    Frankly, I've often felt the same way about rattan sticks. It's not that I'd use one to herd cattle; it's the "real application" issue that bothers me.

    Best,

    Steve
     
  12. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Rope Whip.

    The diagonal backhand strike looks challenging. That's a long weapon to change the direction of!
     
  13. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    Diagonal Backhand

    Not as difficult as it looks. The easier throws are made when you can feel the resistance of the weight of the whip against the handle. In the case of the vertical "gypsy toss" (the one that looks akin to a baseball throw or throwing darts, etc.) you pick up the whip and pull it up and back behind you; you start the forward motion when you feel the whip "tug" against the handle. I've been flyfishing for years so this one was really just a natural.

    The diagonal backhand strike to which you refer is really just a variation of the gypsy toss, except that you've changed the plane of the movement from vertical to horizontal. When you feel that the whip has passed you (it is now to your right instead of behind you) you simply reverse directions with your hips and change the plane of movement from horizonal to 45 degree diagonal. In this case as well it is easy to feel the resistance of the weight of the whip and the connection of the whip to the handle is always there. In both cases you simply pull against the line of resistance.

    I find the sidearm toss to be much harder because it is harder for me to find the line of resistance. I think part of the "secret" is to pull your elbow close to your body so that the second horizonal arc is smaller than the intitial wind up arc around the head. I think also that the whip has to go out in a straight line instead of an arc - or at least the form of the throw makes a tight, inward spiral of sorts ending at the tip. I'll try it out and let you know.

    Best,

    Steve
     
  14. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Flyfishing helps? That's funny, because the sidearm looked very natural to me--can't everyone throw a sidearm pitch with a baseball?
     
  15. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    Rope Whip

    Fly fishing helps - if you've been fly fishing for 40 years!

    Re. the side arm it's difficult if you're following the same circle that you made when you brought the whip around your head for the first time. The problem lies in transferring the energy that's in the belly of the whip down to the tip, which is why I said above that it's probably an issue of creating an inward spiral of sorts. Posting your elbow against your hip helps to bring the whip closer to your body and speeds up the whip because the arc is shorter now.

    Of course, you can throw the side arm from a resting postition wherein the whip is behind you. Here the whip travels in more or less a straight line on a horizontal plane, and squeezing your relaxed hand at the end of the throw helps to send your intention down to the tip of the whip.

    It's just generally harder with the rope whip because the loop that connects the whip to the handle makes it difficult to keep and feel the connection. I find that it's much harder than the leather bullwhip to control and to issue power - but I guess that's one of the reasons Momoy liked it for developing attributes.

    I like the leather bullwhip as well because it responds so precisely to every nuance in your body mechanic; you can really start playing around with making your body mechanic smaller and smaller without sacrificing speed or power.

    They are both interesting training tools and I'm glad I've finally started using them. Definitely a work in progress for me.

    Best,

    Steve
     
  16. tellner

    tellner New Member

    A stick that's around two feet long has mechanical properties that make it useful practice for a lot of other weapons. Clubs and short-to-medium length blades are among the most fundamental and useful hand weapons around and have been since we stopped knuckle walking. In SE Asia rattan is light, cheap and easy to find. Hence its use in practice weapons. There's nothing special about it.

    A whip on the other hand is an extremely specialized tool. It's got way too many limitations to be a particularly useful weapon. The skills don't really transfer to anything else. That's why I don't bother with it.
     
  17. wes tasker

    wes tasker New Member

    Having started working with both small (4 foot) and long (8 foot) whips I disagree. The use of a whip really does have a tremendous amount to teach about subtle body mechanics that can transfer to just about anything.

    Lucky for me, I live in a pretty good neighborhood so I have the luxury of training with weapons etc. that aren't particularly "useful" - but just plain fun. Now a tjabang on the other hand...... :)

    -wes tasker
     
  18. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

  19. Carol

    Carol <font color = blue><b>Technical Administrator</b><

    Ummm...throw a pitch? Sure. Have the ball go where it's supposed to go? That's yet another story. ROFLMAO!
     
  20. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    Ted Williams' book is probably a propos here...

    Following is a YouTube clip of one of Ramon Rubia's students practicing wtih the rope whip:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbdkHXkLpwo

    Best,

    Steve
     

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