Doce Pares Lineage.

Discussion in 'Doce Pares' started by arnisador, Oct 31, 2005.

  1. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I've heard it said that most of the better-known FMAs that are still extant today trace their roots back to Doce Pares in one way or another. I think this is an exaggeration, but I wonder: What are the currently practiced arts that descend from Doce Pares?
     
  2. bart

    bart New Member

    Doce Pares

    I don't think it's an exaggeration, direct relationships are found with:

    Balintawak
    Modern Arnis
    MigSuneDo
    Eskrido
    Pekiti Tirsia

    There are a lot of arts which claimed ties to Doce Pares prior to GM Diony Canete and GM Cacoy Canete coming to the US to teach. Most notably those were Villabrille Kali and Serrada. GM Villabrille even claimed to have been a champion and founding member by some accounts although he was never in any of the club records. Felicimo Dizon who trained Angel Cabales claimed to be in Doce Pares although there were no records of him there as anything but an observer at a match or two. So there was some exaggeration. Although since the early 1990's those claims have been redirected to a hitherto unknown "other" Doce Pares club. That may be the case.

    Doce Pares isn't the wellspring of all of the FMA but it has had influence on a lot of styles even when it wasn't a direct relation such as in:

    Black Eagle
    Inosanto Blend
    Visayan Eskrima
    Lapunti Arnis de Abanico
    Dekiti Tirsia
    Arnis Presas

    Doce Pares as a collection of styles has evolved over the years and there were always many branches. Although Balintawak or Modern Arnis might not look like a Doce Pares you've seen, there are many Doce Pares you haven't. Plus what it looks like now may not be what it looked like in the past.
     
  3. Black Grass

    Black Grass Junior Member

    Bart,

    Please eloborate on the relationship between Pekiti Tirsia/Dekiti Tirsia and Doce Pares. I have read claims that PT/DT knife came from DP, but after seeing some DP knife, I frankly don't believe it. BTW I am not a Pekiti player so I have no agenda here.

    Vince
    aka Black Grass
    Bakabakan International
     
  4. bart

    bart New Member


    [​IMG]
     
  5. Black Grass

    Black Grass Junior Member

    Bart,

    Kewl pic.


    Can you put into context what is going on here, I think thats Momoy and Gaje. Are you saying that Pekti came from Doce Pares or that Doce Pares has influenced Pekiti and if so in what way?

    Vince
    aka Black Grass
    Bakbakan International
     
  6. bart

    bart New Member

    When you say you've seen Doce Pares knife, who's knife have you seen? There is a big difference between Doce Pares groups. The knife of DP Multi-style has a different emphasis than the San Miguel Doce Pares. GM Cacoy's DP knife is also going to have it's own flavor.

    Although they may seem completely different now doesn't mean that they don't share roots. They've all developed over the years, but at one point they touched base.
     
  7. bart

    bart New Member

    I'm just trying to point out that they touched base. That is GM Momoy and GM Gaje. That was taken when Pekiti Tirsia had not yet been revealed to the world. At that time, Leo Gaje was just another guy taking eskrima lessons. He was present at a lot of Doce Pares training sessions and events. He may not give credit to Doce Pares, but you can't go to those things and not be influenced.
     
  8. Epa

    Epa Member

    Other Doce Pares

    I have heard from a variety of sources that there are or at least were several Doce Pares organizations in the Philippines. The most famous is the Cebu Doce Pares Club which this thread has focused on so far. Guro Dan Inosanto has mentioned at least two other Doce Pares clubs, one was in the Laguna region of Luzon. Presumably, this is the club connected with Felicismo Dizon (sp?) since he spent much of his life in Luzon. I had not heard of the Villabrille connection to Laguna Doce Pares before, but it's a possibility since Dizon cornered for Villabrille in all of his stick fights after 1921 that were in the Philippines(according to Guro Inosanto). I have also seen a reference to an Agapito Ilustrisimo in connection with the Laguna Doce Pares, but I don't know if there is a family relation or just a coincidence. I believe there is one instructor who claims ties to the Laguna Doce Pares who is teaching in the US. His name is Abundio Baet and his website is http://www.garimot.com/abon.htm. I assume there are other instructors that are connected to this Doce Pares Club.
    Guro Inosanto also mentioned a Doce Pares club in the Visayas (aside from the Cebu club). He said that his instructor Juanito Lacoste trained with them and they were more of a secret group. I'm not sure if they're even around to day. He mentioned that they were connected with the Illongos (I don't know if that is a tribe, a region, a dialect or what, but that's the name I remember him saying). I have no direct sources regarding this group and don't know if they still exist. Also, do you have any more on the Pekiti/Doce Pares connection?

    Hope that helps,
    Eric
     
  9. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

    I have read many posts that described the Doce Pares organization as a 'club' that had various instructors and students that were distinct from one another, but were all training in the same location.

    Does this mean that the clubhouse was common use and different people used it at different times (like time sharing or sub leasing a martial arts school from another martial artist)? There would be some cross training, but people would mainly train with their chosen instructor?

    Or

    Does this mean that everyone showed up on the same schedule and were doing their own thing somewhere on the floor while others were somewhere else on the floor?

    Either way it seems like it would be very difficult to discern between 'direct student' and 'trained with' or what ever for a family tree in any 'official' fashion.
     
  10. Epa

    Epa Member

    Loki,

    I'm not sure if I understood what you're asking for, but I'll try my best. In my post, I was saying that there were other Filipino Martial Arts groups (clubs whatever you want to call them) that used the name Doce Pares that were not affiliated in any documented way with the Doce Pares Club of Cebu (the club founded by the Canete Brothers and Saavedras (sp?) as well as several other Cebuano Eskrimadors).
    The other two clubs that I mentioned were not on the same islands as the Canete Doce Pares. One is on Laguna, on the island of Luzon. I was not given a location for the other. I know it is in the Visayan region and was assoicated with the Illongo (again I'm not sure if that's an ethnic group, language or location). So I don't think these Doce Pares could rightfully be considered off shoots of the Cebu Doce Pares. In fact, there's no evidence to suggest that these groups were aware of each other. They all just happened to use the same name.
    Maybe it's more than a coincidence and players from one club moved and continued practicing, I simply don't have enough information to confirm or deny that. At this point, there seems to be no solid link between any of these groups. As Bart pointed out, Dizon was only a spectator at one or two matches assoicated with the Cebu Doce Pares so there seems to be no direct link there. At this point, there only seems to be a connection between the names of the ogranizations.
    As far as the organization of the Doce Pares club in Cebu. I have no idea how they organized their practice or what format they used. Bart could probably answer that better than I could. I hope that made sense.

    Eric
     
  11. loki09789

    loki09789 -== Banned ==-

    Eric,

    I was asking how the Canete/Saveedra Doce Pares club operated on a daily basis.

    The 'many instructors under one roof' ideas has been mentioned many times. I was just wondering what that looked like in action.
     
  12. bart

    bart New Member

    Doce Pares

    Hey There,

    From what I've been told the Doce Pares club in Cebu City was organized to be a gym where eskrimadors could get together and practice. It was a sort of neutral ground where they were supposed to be able to exchange ideas and such. It wasn't a scheduled type of thing like a modern day karate school. It did have set work out times and meetings where people signed in, but it was also open most of the time and people came to work out. Membership was certainly controlled.

    There were factions within the Doce Pares club and they eventually wound their way into organized styles led by a particular teacher or group. The Canetes and the Saavedras were the most widely known entities, but there were others such as Anciong Bacon and Inting Carin. Some of course split off and did their own thing. And there were practioners and styles that didn't join or participate in the Doce Pares club. Black Eagle would be a good example.

    Cebu City is a hub of trade. As such, the people who lived there often took work in other places. The same goes today. So some of the practicioners would leave and go to other parts of the Philippines and create a satelite of the Doce Pares club in Cebu. It may be controversial, but there is a good chance that the other Doce Pares clubs that are referred to may be one of those clubs. Also, as the Doce Pares Club became popular and well known it came to be recognized as yet another synonym for the weapon based fma. The other "outside of Cebu" Doce Pares groups around could have been simply using the lingua franca of the day to reference their art.

    Aside from Gat Puno Baet, the references to a Luzon Doce Pares don't begin to be revealed from Serada and Villabrille groups until the mid 1980's after there was a big influx of Philippines based FMA teachers who traveled to the US. In fact Cabales, Villabrille, and others taught that the FMA were dying or dead in the Philippines when in all actuality, they had been thriving and continuing to develop.

    One thing is for sure and that is that the Doce Pares Club in Cebu City kept written records. They were in the newspapers and in news and sports radio broadcasts. They had elections for their heirarchy. They held fights and tournaments. They held social functions. They had large membership that branched off into different styles and into different clubs. They documented events and were documented by other entities.

    Mostly the other Doce Pares legends are just that, legends. The evidence is mainly testimonial and in testimony from the same people who related fantastic tales of blind princesses and mechanized tunnels of death, people who swore up and down that there was no more eskrima in the Philippines.
     
  13. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Doce Pares Eskrima

    Bart Hubbard is correct when he says that Leo Gaje’s Pekiti Tirsia Kali may have been influenced by his exposure to Momoy Canete and his expression of Doce Pares Eskrima (San Miguel Eskrima). For example, a comparison of SME’s “Downward” pattern has basic similarities with PTK’s “Espada y Daga – Attack #5” (which can be interpreted as a variation taken from the first set of Seguidas):

    http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/downward_files/downward_application_example.mpg

    http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/pekiti_files/attack_5.mpg

    In is interesting to note however that Leo Gaje began training at the age of six with his grandfather and other seniors in his village in Occidental Negros in what was essentially a family art; the picture of Leo and Momoy that Bart has provided shows Leo as a young man (possibly in his ‘30’s?). It is not uncommon for accomplished martial artists to travel to train with senior masters to “round out” their education, and one wonders what other individuals GM Gaje sought out during this period of his life as well?

    There are moreover differences between Pekiti Tirsia Kali and San Miguel Eskrima that deserve mention: (1) there is a difference in psychological orientation insofar as many aspects of SME resemble a “white-hot duelist’s art” (SME has many qualities of the Xing Yi Quan maxim that one looks upon the opponent as an eagle up the sky looks upon its prey), whereas PTK has more of a “red-hot, attack your village, raze it to the ground, and salt the fields” feel to it – at least in my opinion. (2) The footwork patterns can be very different, especially with respect to the use of the side-step and body-torque to generate speed and power in PTK. (3) The length of the weapons in each respective art tend to be different, and this influences the angling, distancing, body-mechanics, techniques, and tactics of each art to various degrees. The sword most likely used in SME is the pinute (http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/espada_y_daga.htm), which can be a longer sword (up to about 33") capable of both thrusting and cutting and is probably influenced by European sword design. This is probably why the “Espada y Daga” drills of SME translate so well to sabre and (for training purposes) rapier-sword and dagger (instead of surrogate wooden training weapons). See for example:

    http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/espada_y_daga_files/discussion_about_espada_y_daga.mpg

    http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/espada_y_daga_files/rapier_and_dagger.mpg

    On the other hand, the sword most probably used in PKT is the gununting (Cf. http://www.maelstromcore.com/weapons/ for an example), although a bolo and even a barong (Cf. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/swords/barong/barong.htm for an example) can also be used for close-quarter slashing and thrusting. See the following clip for a discussion of how weapon length can influence the stylistic differences between Filipino martial arts:

    http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/pekiti_files/weapon_length.mpg

    Best,

    Steve Lamade
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2005
  14. Buwaya

    Buwaya Senior Member

    Bart, Do you know if GM Villibrilles claim is anywhere in print? Like in Inosanto's book or one of Villibrille or GM Largusa's various articles?

    Wouldn't Lapunti be categorized as a direct influence? I always understood that GM Filemon Caburney was a original Doce Pares member and a student of the Savedras as well as former sparring partners with GM Momoy Canete.
     
  15. Buwaya

    Buwaya Senior Member

    GM Gaje and GM Nene Tortal in addition to training with GM Conrado Tortal, also trained with their relative Jose Lamayo Vinas, GM of Lapu-Lapu Vinas Arnis of Bacolod city. Not to be confused with GM Hermino Binas of Binas Dynamic Arnis, who I understand GM Nene Tortal did not train with, contrary to Philippine Martial Culture.


    Cool clips. I love watching GM Momoy's art. I've been told that GM Momoy's sword of choice was not the pinuti, but the straight Espada? Can someone verify this? Bart? Steve?

    The barung is not indigenous to Negros and is not a PTK weapon. Most Tausug, Sama, Yakan would probably be annoyed or apalled to see a PTK practitioner using a barung. Negros has their own version of a barong called a plamingko, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=809 , as you can see it has a distinct blade form.
     
  16. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    swords

    Nice swords - and thanks for the clarification re. the barong. One of my teachers trained in PT and just likes the barong as it works well for his purposes. He'd be pretty annoyed to be told that he couldn't play with it but I guess that's just the nature of some Filipino martial artists...The plamingko is a very pretty weapon - I wouldn't mind owning one.

    Haven't heard about Momoy's preference for the espada over the pinute. Is the espada something like a rapier-sword? I saw some of these when I was in Italy a couple of summers ago.

    Re. the pinute: I was told that they put a back edge on the last couple of inches for sunkete strikes, and that there were other swords that actually hooked back from the tip specifically for this purpose...

    Best,

    Steve
     
  17. Buwaya

    Buwaya Senior Member

    I might be mistaken but I believe he's holding one in a picture in this website, in the section "Filemon Canete", http://www.eskrima.com/ . I can find and post another picture later.
     
  18. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    espada

    I think that it's a stick (I have a larger, print version in my office that I'll look at).

    Still, a long, narrow, straight sword makes sense.

    Best,

    Steve
     
  19. Buwaya

    Buwaya Senior Member

    Lolz! I think your right. I mistook his index finger for the sword guard. http://www.eskrima.nl/nieuw/d/eskrimashopd.htm . Scroll down, #K7.
     
  20. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    espada

    Re. K7 - yes, that makes sense - a light, straight sword - capable of cutting and thrusting. Still, I'd like a wider guard (see my post under "videos").

    Most of the pinute's that I've seen seem a little shorter and heavier than what I'd like, although the 32 1/2 inch espada available through Cas Iberia (in the espada y daga set #SR526) seems acceptable. Probably a little heavier than if there were a real one based on the practice sword you mention and there's more belly at the end of the blade for larga distance cuts. I think that I'm going to ask for this one for Christmas.

    Best,

    Steve Lamade
     

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