Could the answer be in some old footage?

Discussion in 'Dekiti Tirsia Siradas' started by Kali Cowboy, Sep 6, 2008.

  1. Kali Cowboy

    Kali Cowboy New Member

    My take on a old question -

    PTK or DTS?

    Is it the chicken or the egg?

    I think the answer can be found in an old video clip, and from Leo's own lips!

    In the "Contratas" DVD, filmed before some of us were born, there is an interview done with Grandmaster Nene, Grandmaster Gaje and the interviewer Allen J. Sachetti.

    In this clip you clearly hear Grandmaster Gaja say that Grandmaster Nene is the TRADITIONAL side of the art and I am the non-traditional.

    Here is the answer for those who don't belive in Grandmaster Nene, from their Master himself.

    What came first? Tradition or Non-Traditional?

    To me this can be transulated as - DTS is the art in its orinional form and if you want to help propetuate an ancient family art, to keep it alive, as it was created.....then train in DTS.

    If you want other stuff added in the mix, go train PTK.

    God Bless,
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2008
  2. puntadas

    puntadas New Member

    western mindset

    better to keep quiet & be thought a fool, than to speak up & remove all doubt...

  3. PeteNerd

    PeteNerd Member

    I appreciate your analysis, but i think it might be a bit misguided. If you watch the clip closely, it is obvious what is going here. Allen asks Nene to give his input and he doesn't want to say anything, so Tuhon Gaje covers up for him with this dialog.

    GTG: "He doesn't want to say something because he doesn't want to tell his secrets."
    GTG: "because when he says something, the secrets come out."
    AS: "It took me a long time to get him to teach me"
    GTG: "As a matter of fact, the more you give him money, the more he doesn't want to teach you."
    AS: "that's the tradition"
    GTG: "That's the tradition. He is more of the traditional type and I am more of the non-traditional."

    In the clip he is clearly talking about how Nene is more traditional in his approach to accepting students, where as at the time Tuhon Gaje was more open to accepting anyone as a student.

  4. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member


    I have that tape, and without understanding the original context of GT Gaje's remarks, it would be difficult for me to draw the same inference. Leo's remarks might merely mean that he is affording some respect to his elder uncle while at the same time giving himself props as both an innovator and ambassador for the art. [Note: I posted this before I saw Petenerd's response, above, which makes perfect sense.]

    In any case having "other stuff in the mix" does not mean that the ancient family art, as it was created, etc. does not exist in PTK. Nor does it mean that the "other stuff in the mix" could not be defined as "the art in its original form" (a discussion of the difference between "style" and "system" is a propos here).

    No matter what permutations have been added or taken away, PTK, like any FMA, is merely a logical [SIZE=-1]algorithm [/SIZE]of techniques built upon a foundation of body mechanics and footwork. If Leo is not teaching the essence of what his grandfather taught him, I'll eat my hat.


  5. NAGA

    NAGA Member

    Extol the postive!

    Hello Stephen,
    I think in the end we should leave this subject alone. Primarily because I have other Dramas to deal with, and I do not want another subjective argument thing going on. Simply put Grand Tuhon Tortals technique and knowledge speak for themselves. NOBODY, can argue against that, so let it go and do not get into another useless battle of mindless prattle and hearsay......

    Your Brother in DTS,
  6. Kali Cowboy

    Kali Cowboy New Member

    Thank you, you are right maybe it should be locked up and removed. I am very passionate about my art, and I do respect others and the choices they make. This was a bad choice for me.
    God Bless,
  7. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise Senior Member Supporting Member

    I think they are both great systems taught by two remarkable martial pioneers. Kudos to both. [​IMG]
  8. R. Mike Snow

    R. Mike Snow Chiseled Edge

    I hate to have to burst everyone's bubble, all this bickering about who's who and who is "The ONE". But! There actually 4 seniors in the Tortal family that are inheritors of the family system:

    GT Segundito

    GT Nene

    GT Melecio

    GT Gaje

    As for whom and how much GT Nene teaches to someone, has nothing to do with money. It has to do with an individual's disposition and personality. GT Nene on many ocassion has taught under priveledged people at no charge. Because he knows what it is like to struggle to survive from his childhood.

    This information has been given to me by members of the Tortal family. Not opinionated individuals from either side of the debate which is senseless and meaningless. GT Nene has not ever bragged to me about his level of knowlege about the family system. I just know that some of the other elders of the Tortal family have asked me personally to do everything I possibly can to preserve the family system intact and not blend it with other systems which, disappoints them when it happens. This was told to me by the same Tortal elders that told me "You will take care of my brother/cousin Nene because he has the most extensive knowlege of the family system". Talk about a huge responsibility.

    Again, I could personally care less about the use of the D or the P. Ridiculing the use of one or the other and any name changes is like ridiculing Matahari Tuhon Segundo for changing the name of the family system from Florete Etchicete Eskrima. It is all senseless and dispespectful.

    I personally encourage everyone, whether or not you are practicing Dekiti or Pekiti to meet and train with the other elders of the Tortal family.

    Does that make me misguided?

    God Bless, Mike
  9. NAGA

    NAGA Member

    Hello Everyone,
    Stephen just remember passion is a great thing, but if anything we have learned being on public chat site is this.... There is a big difference between being a fan and a fanatic and no matter what, some persons cannot be reasoned with......

    Thanks and as always God bless you my DTS family,

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