Brief History of our System

Discussion in 'Dekiti Tirsia Siradas' started by NubreedKaliSilat, Jan 13, 2008.

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  1. NubreedKaliSilat

    NubreedKaliSilat New Member

    Brief History of our System
    ( Dekiti-Tirsia-Siradas)

    Dekiti-Tirsia-Siradas
    is a unique system of filipino martial arts. It is identified with Kali in its philosophy and cultural forms. But with it's own identity in its genetic values which manifest in the physical and intellectual structure of the art which is observed and found in the ability and skill of Dekiti-Tirsia-Siradas.

    Dekiti-Tirsia-Siradas
    is one of the live and original fighting arts of the Philippines

    In Ilonggo dialect:

    Dekiti- means Malapit, very tightly close, cornered in an area, to close in,
    devastate the enemy. Tear apart nothing left.
    Tirsia- means gua sa wala or sa tuo or quartering in fighting, "pasulod",
    push the enemy to a corner or area in a three corners sides preventing him to escape or run away from multiple deadly blows and thrusts.
    Siradas- means stop him to get in or get out not able to penetrate in any
    angle of attack.

    Dekiti-Tirsia-Siradas- was a formation of intellectual expertise of the Tortal's brothers namely: Conrado, Balbino, Francisco, Teodorico, along with their father Segundito and grandfather Norberto. Those where the pillars of Dekiti-Tirsia-Siradas. This family system now survive by Grandmaster Jerson P. (Nene) Tortal and his son Jerson E. Tortal Jr.

    Dekiti-Tirsia-Siradas- made history in the martial arts world. It was popularized by Grandmaster "Nene" Tortal from the province of Negros Occidental, Philippines and expended to the North and South America, and Western Europe and other parts of Asia.

    Dekiti-Tirsia-Siradas- is a medieveal art of the modren times and of the living past. It has been proven and continued to be effective and devastating. It is a complete system of self defense and sport.

    Information taken from the Philippine Arnis (Kali) Martial Arts Federation Int'l. Inc. brocher.

    Nubreed
     
  2. R. Mike Snow

    R. Mike Snow Chiseled Edge

    Halo Brother Ben,

    Well said! Even though we all know that they are not the only surviving members of the Tortal family that teach. I personally chose to learn from Grand Tuhon 'Nene' becuse I did not like the fact that other versions/teachers of the Tortal Family System integrated Sinwali and pieces of the triangle footwaork from Lanka Empat. After stumbling across the Contradas, Recontradas and Recontras by viewing old footage of the Tortal family members training together. We felt that the only way to get the original family techniques was to ask the elders of the Tortal family in Negros and Los Angeles to accept our group as students. Well, and here we are today!

    God Bless and SULONG! Mike
     
  3. mangyaniraya

    mangyaniraya New Member

    Salamat po! sana maliwanagan ang nadidimlan..Happy training to all FMA!
     
  4. dekiti

    dekiti DTS Guro

    DTS History in FMA Digest

    You can find a comprehensive history of DTS at FMA Digest. Here is the link
     
  5. mikesf

    mikesf New Member

    2 points I'd like to make:

    1.) The first one is in Edgar Sulite's book 'Masters of Arnis, Kali and Escrima' which for those who don't own it is a book where there are chapters devoted to many of Edgar's instructors and various Grandmaster's he traveled to interview.

    on page 117 It says and I quote:

    "Grandmaster Jerson 'Nene' Tortal Pekiti-Tirsia System of Arnis"

    Grand Tuhon Gaje is in the same book.

    The book is from 1993 and I bought it directly from Edgar Sulite.

    That's very interesting.

    2.) Concerning the linguistic origin of 'Dekiti'


    Thanks,

    Mike
     
  6. silat1

    silat1 Active Member


    We've been down this path before, so let's not beat a dead horse.. The difference in name from what GM Nene Tortal and Tuhon Gaje teaches are insignificant.. I have trained with GM Tortal when he was in chicago in 06 and my impression coming from having studied several eskrima/arnis systems, it is one of the better systems that I have studied.. IMHO, it is more down to earth and not as high profile as PTK, but it does come from the same family..

    As family trees have branches, this topic has been planted, fertilized by some who were in disagreement and grown into what I feel is some people trying to rewrite family history by making the family tree go straight up instead of having the branches as it should.

    Remember, in the FMA, the names of systems can cover place, family, regions, or specific situations and it is the individual who makes the system work for them, not the name.

    So instead of going the route of being boisterous about a specific system, take it for what is meant to be used for and that is to ensure survival and not start the flame wars that have lit up the internet rain forest since the 1990s.

    Just my .02 pesos
     
  7. mikesf

    mikesf New Member

    My argument wasn't that systems can't have branches. Of course they can. My evidence was to support which is the trunk and which is the branch. The claim has been made that DTS was the 'older' version to cover the fact that is that came directly from PTK.

    I'm not making value judgments on either system, I respect all martial artists who can apply their craft. I'm just giving evidence to point out the fact that PTK is the original Tortal family art.

    So far I've heard no refuting of the point made about GM Nene in Edgar's book.

    I've heard no refuting of the linguistics either.

    If either point were untrue they would be easy to shoot down.


     
  8. dekiti

    dekiti DTS Guro

    Leo's Claim

    Please take note, historical records of Filipino Martial Arts are very rare and scarce before the 1900's. In Filipino culture, martial arts knowledge is passed from father to all his CHILDERN because martial arts is more of a survival tool rather than a family heirloom. All members of the Tortal Clan can learn their family martial arts because they need it.
    So what historical evidence does Leo Gaje in his claim as the sole inheritor of the Martial Arts of the Tortal Clan other than his own personal testimony. Why would Conrado Tortal make his grandson the sole heir when Conrado's own sons are still alive? Are not all descendants of the Tortals valid inheritors?
     
  9. R. Mike Snow

    R. Mike Snow Chiseled Edge

    Halo to all my fellow FMA Brethren,

    I have to agree with Brother Bill. Don't you guys ever get tired of beating a dead horse? It's funny this came back up right now. Because I was just going through some old magzines I stashed up in my closet and forgot all about. One is an old FMA Magazine published by CFW Enterpirses. The same company company that publishes Inside Kung Fu. There is a cool old article written by Jarred Wahongi, whom I have spoken to a couple of times in the past and he's a really nice guy. Jarred's article refers GM Nene's family system as Pekiti-Tirsia Siradas, not Pekiti-Tirsia Kali or Dekiti-Tirsia Siradas. Oh No, now we have three names to squabble about. OMG, how can it be?????????????????????????? I think I am going to lose sleep over this one tooooooooooo............

    I also hear some of the elder practitioners refer to Grandmaster Nene Tortal as Grand Tuhon Tortal. OH NO! How can that be?????

    When everyone shows up to attend the seminars and camps this year as usual. If two guys show up and one wants to learn Pekiti and the guy wants to learn Dekiti. I will welcome both of them in not thinking a thing about which way they pronounce it.

    Can't we get back to what this entire forum was intented for? Learning from each other about different systems, techniques and Sandata. This is starting to remind me of "The Young and the Wrestless". Basically the same group of people squabbling over the some stuff with a new person popping in to add a new twist to the same old story. I asked my girlfriend just the other day,"Didn't Victor and Nicky get married like 3 years ago and 7 yearsago and 15 years ago?" Unfortunately, this is really what this subject is starting to remind me of.

    Arnes or Arnis?

    Escrima or Eskrima?

    Kalis or Kali?

    Gung fu or Kung Fu?

    Tai-Ji or Tai Chi

    Bagua Zhang or Pa Kua Chang?

    Xing Yi or Hsing-i?

    Pencak Silat or Pentjak Silat?

    Barong or Barung?

    God Bless, Mike
     
  10. Imua Kuntao

    Imua Kuntao New Member

    Mike, you forgot kempo or kenpo,lol, Joel.
     
  11. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Yes, but the list makes a good point anyway! Can I add Wing Chun and Ving Tsun?
     
  12. mikesf

    mikesf New Member

    Sure pronunciation can vary. That really wasn't my point. My points were

    1.) to support the fact Pekit Tirsia came first and is the original family system, DTS came about in the mid 90's.

    There is nothing wrong with this.. and it isn't a value judgment on the system. Just trying to support historical fact with evidence. I realize there aren't a lot of written records especially back in the day. I realize pronunciation can and does vary, as does colloquial spelling.

    2.) The second point was that Dekiti is from Tagalog and Pekiti is Illongo which would beg the question why would they use a Tagalog word (Dekiti), supposedly in the 1800's to name the Family system of a System that is mainly from Negros where Illongo is the dialect?

    Like I said before I respect all martial artists who can apply their craft. I'm not making value judgments. The point about Edgar's book is quite valid and hasn't been mentioned here to my knowledge. So I was bringing it up to be refuted if it is an untrue statement.

    Surely there is a picture or an article somewhere to support that DTS being called the 'original' Tortal family system was around before around 1996? There is however, evidence to the contrary. So as a rational person I have to take that into account.

    There is a lot of written documentation on PTK and many other Filipino arts, to some extent. For example if I were to make the claim Angel Cabales named his system Serrada in 1996 anyone could refute that is being untrue very easily.

    I realize a lot of system won't have such documentation and that certainly would not discredit them. I'm just saying if there is some evidence it would be easy to refute my 2 points.


    Mike
     
  13. mikesf

    mikesf New Member

    Point number 3.)

    Matt Lim in this post reports that he heard directly from Nene that Dekiti is a correction of Pekiti.

    http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=2241&highlight=correction

    To correct something, that something has to exist already.

    To supposedly correct Pekiti, Pekiti must exist to be corrected.

    The claim has also been made that Dekiti was the name of the system from the mid 1800's. Pekiti Tirsia was officially named in 1897.

    If so why would Nene use the supposedly uncorrect version in 1993 in Edgar's book?

    You can not both have Dekiti created in the 1850's and correct Pekiti that was named 50 years later in 1897.

    That is a logical impossibility.


    Mike
     
  14. silat1

    silat1 Active Member

    Enuff is enuff already.. Mike Snow and I have said not to beat this horse again.. History is just one man's observation of what he sees as it is put down in paper or passed along in oral history.. Let well enough alone..

    I could say that I studied with Rajah Lapu Lapu when he and his tribe of merry men met Magellan on Mactan island in 1521. Who could refute that?

    Why is this piece of history always a point of contention between the two systems? Simply because one member of the family took the path of a used car salesman and the other came out and took the path of a more cultured Mercedes dealer, what does it matter?

    Both vehicles will get you to the same destination when you put the key in the ignition and turn it while applying gas and pointing it in the direction you want to go.

    This difference of names is a family matter and although one member keeps calling the other out as far as contradicting what the other one says, it should stay with in the family.. Not one that non family members should get involved with unless they are married within the family and let well enough alone.

    This statement is mine and mine alone, it does not represent the opinions of either the DTS or PTK systems and any questions should be directed towards myself.
     
  15. kaliace

    kaliace New Member

    I guess Science and simple Logic could refute that since you would be almost 500 years old. :)
     
  16. PeteNerd

    PeteNerd Member

    What is that supposed to mean? I'm trying to figure out which is which.

    I think it's funny how you guys try to just forget that GT Gaje has been out there promoting Pekiti Tirsia in the public eye for decades. Wasn't Nene at one time Pekiti-Tirsia?

    If we can just admit he changed the name to distance himself from GT Gaje, that's cool, but saying it's the old original name just smacks of BS.

    Pete
     
  17. silat1

    silat1 Active Member

    If you read my posting closely, you will see that I never referred to any specific individuals in my statement.. These words are mine and mine alone as I have seen and followed the separate systems for years as an outsider although I have trained with some people from both systems over the years and have been involved with conversations with people who have been in both systems for decades.

    As I stated, this is a family disagreement and it should be left alone by non family members as it doesn't concern them.. You study the art of your chosing and that is what you should do, but unless you are a family member stay out of the firefight and without the coals of this fire being racked over and over again, it will eventually be extinguished.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2008
  18. silat1

    silat1 Active Member


    Just making a statement, although there are times when I feel a heck of a lot older than my natural age when it comes to the constant bantering between the different factions of the FMA.

    :lookaroun:nixweiss:
     
  19. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I agree that this horse is deceased.
     
  20. pguinto

    pguinto New Member

    its all eskrima to me lol
     
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