Balintawak weight distribution

Discussion in 'Balintawak' started by Black Grass, Apr 12, 2006.

  1. Pike

    Pike New Member

    Hi Arnisador & brock[​IMG]

    Students become versed in the thread of training the basic principles our
    body structure is the subject of advancement
    The advanced structure knows when they are 50-50 primed ready to go
    Most of us have the mentality mechanics to sit back on defence
    from our original arts (me = karate & boxing )


    Also with one heel raised 50-50 is still possible
    (never stops hurting the quads though)[​IMG]


    Pike
     
  2. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    I have quoted the last few posts here to make some points and express my point of view.

    The weight is on the side of the body that the strike is coming from. i.e. right leg forward, stick in right hand, striking a Balintawak number one, forehand to the head, the weight is on the front right leg. Now if for some reason the left leg is forward and the same strike is made, the weight is still on the right leg while it is back. There is no number, if just is more than 50%. You use the amount required to obtain the proper body mechanics and position to be able to strike the opponent.

    The 50-50 is a good way to reference where one is in a block situation as the combative can then go in either direction without resetting their weight and telegraphing their area of attack.

    The difference between the beginning students and the advanced students is not in the weight, but in the body and leg facing. In the beginning the student learns to step and face the incoming strike and then learns to block and counter using proper body mechanics and timing. Later one learns to just turn the upper body to face the stike, so now no leg movement is required (* unless one needs room and time to block or the attack is coing at the knee *), to block and counter. And the even later yet, the student is taught to not have to change the upper body facing and to be able to strike anywhere this way with out telegraphing the position of the next attack.


    This is true. As in the case where one is always stepping to face the cane or that just happens to be the position one is in. The rear heel may come up to properly chamber the hips and prepare proper body mechanics for the strike.

    While I agree that 50-50 appearance is possible with the heel up and that one can be in a chambered positions with a 50-50 appearance, but to maximize the strike it must be biased, from my experience with my instructor and myself. I agree to those outside watching they may not have seen the 51-49 or 55-45 difference, but I believe from my experience and teaching it is there. (* And yes the Quads with the knees bent will get a work out and one may even get the leg shakes from a class in such a position. :) *)

    My only other training being another FMA that also had the GM who studied Balintawak, I do not understand your comment about sitting back on defense. I understanding sitting on your post or stool behind you, but not sure how the defense ties in as you mentioned it relationship to other arts.

    Thanks
     
  3. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer New Member

    I think the perception of a constant 50-50 weight distribution may come from an interpretation of the term "center balance" as we use it in Bobby Taboada's teaching method, which I believe is Pike's pedigree, too.

    Center balance does not necessarily mean a 50-50 weight distribution between both feet. It refers to exactly what it says: maintaining balance towards the center, which requires constant adjustment of weight distribution as one moves. More specifically, center balance refers to not letting one's chest (weight) go (lean) forward of the knees. If one's weight is forward of the knees, not only are they off-balance to the front, they can't generate power to attack or defend.

    Robert
     
  4. Pike

    Pike New Member

    thank you for your theory
    Rich
    Yes the the perception of 50-50 is for the opponent but we strive to
    be 50-50 all of practice to if we fight then it becomes the part (ok)

    we can still be forward and be defensive and in power position
    if you understand the structual position

    and strike from all positions

    Pike
     
  5. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    Robert,

    Thank you for the information.
     
  6. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    From the Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary Copyright 1996
    Theory - 1) A coherent group of general propositions used as priniples of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity. 2 a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact. 3) Math a bosy of principles, theorems, or the like belonging to one subject: number theory. 4) the branch of a science or art that deals with principles, or methods, as distinguished from its practice: music theory 5) a particular conception or view of something to be done or of a method of doing it; a system of rules or principles. 6) contemplation or speculation. 7) guess or conjecture.

    Dear sir,

    Which of the above meanings of the word Theory did you mean? For I cannot find one that is not at least a snipe at me or a direct insult.

    But to the point at hand, I have a theory that you are not as trained nor as skilled as you might think you are or want to be. Even with the difference of terms and vocabulary one could see that there is more than one family branch, and therefore some variations may be in existence. I accept this but if you insist on it being one way only, then we will just have to see, if I or others are willing to listen or reply to anything you have to say.

    Regards
     
  7. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer New Member

    Man, Rich... rough night? :beer2:
    You were a bit rough on Pike, there.:kicknuts:
    Pike:

    I too was a bit confused by "the perception of 50-50 is for the opponent but we strive to be 50-50 all of practice to if we fight then it becomes the part (ok)". Can you explain this more clearly?

    Was this in response to my post: "we can still be forward and be defensive and in power position if you understand the structual position
    and strike from all positions"?

    Robert
     
  8. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member


    Robert,

    If I offended you or other students of Balintawak, that was not my intention. I was trying to understand if we (* Pike and I *) have a failure to communicate or is he just being rude and insulting.

    Part of the problem I have is that, people are teaching this art, and some of them are very skilled and others may not be. As from my other posts here and on other sites about Balintawak, I have no problem with anyone adding or subtracting to a curriculum, just so long as they educate those they teach. I have no problems with instructors or senior students using different verbage if it helps others learn for that may be the right word to make the connection for them.

    I do have problems with the internet warriors who know a little or some and then try to spread incomplete or mis-information as fact. It cannot be stopped, for that is all about human perception but, there is and was no reason for being rude in a simple discussion, no matter how educated the word may seem.

    So Robert, I respect you and the organization you are with and GM Bobby Taboada. I did not mean to cause you or others grief. But I was curious and wondering about his snide remark.

    Thank you
    :asian:
     
  9. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise Senior Member Supporting Member

    Okay I am not a practitioner of Balintawak but I do find it interesting to watch both in person and on video. My question then would be how could you always be 50-50 weight distribution. If you have to move, you have a transferance of weight and are no longer 50-50. Certainly all practitioners of Balintawak move and do not stand still. (based on what I have witnessed first hand)

    However having observed people in motion they are very centered close to around 50-50 when not in motion.

    These are just my observations and I am curious to hear some Balintawak practitioners opinions as well.
     
  10. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer New Member

    Rich, you certainly didn't offend me. I was just razzing you a bit since you put the Internet version of the rochambeau on Pike (http://www.wavsite.com/sounds/42369/south05.wav). :wink2:

    I'm sure that Pike's a big boy and, if he's able to post things to the general public on the Internet, he should be able to explain himself when asked. We're a self-policing crowd and if he were to come out with anything too silly, I'm sure his instructor would have a chat with him; much the same as Bobby would have a chat with me if I did the same...
    :whip:

    All the best,

    Robert
     
  11. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer New Member

    Brian:

    I think you're spot on with your observations. Moving is a constant process of weight transfer. (Last time I checked, Balintawak wasn't an exception to the laws of physics. :wink2: )

    Yes, while stationary, balance is maintained to the center. Even with the heel of one foot raised slightly, weight distribution is approximately 50-50.

    As I'm sure you've noticed, there are no forward stances, back stances, etc. in Balintawak. Footwork in Balintawak is predicated on a natural stepping motion and distance. Rich made a good point in that although someone watching may not notice a 55-45 weight distribution, it doesn't change the fact that it's still there. What you shouldn't see in Balintawak is anything like a 75-25 weight distribution.

    Robert
     
  12. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    Well with the Drink Icon I figured you were ribbing me and giving me my due ;) I liked your link and it is funny. :rofl: :lol:
     
  13. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    That having been said, I do understand that Balintawak tends to step relatively less than most other systems, due to the very close range at which it is applied. (Of course, in most FMAs I think that s you get better you can get away with less stepping and more body shifting.) As I read these posts, I wonder if that is part of the reason for these nuanced discussions of a hard-to-measure 55/45 weight spilt.
     
  14. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer New Member

    You know, I hadn't thought about it until I read your post but, to anyone outside of Balintawak, I guess it would seem like splitting hairs over 50-50 vs 55-45. (Balintawak: those picky people. :D )

    I think with experience one does become sensitive to subtle changes in balance - your own and your opponent's - especially at close range where both the weapon and empty hand are in play. The pushing, pulling and off-balancing found in Balintawak looks to capitalize on an opponent's changes in balance. The short stepping and weaving motions in Balintawak can also provide a bit of defensive trickery: feigning a shift in balance to invite an attempted push, pull, or trip with every intention of countering it if it does come.

    As an aside, a big difference between Balintawak footwork and that of many other systems is the distinctive lack of the v-pattern footwork that's synonymous with most of the Filipino arts.

    Robert
     
  15. Pike

    Pike New Member

    I am not used to upsetting people face to face or in any other way

    i have re-read my post and it was the wrong thing to say[​IMG]
    i wish no dis respect of any person in fma
    and if i did offend mr parsons please except my apologies

    the thing is my enthusiasm and passion for balintawak
    my thoughts seem to flow quicker than my typing skills can keep up with

    my sentences may be short but i will learn to waffle on a bit more without
    getting into trouble [​IMG](got to remember to read what is exactly said)

    there are a lot of fma people out there i can learn a lot from [​IMG]

    at present i have been hit by the runaway balintawak train
    and my brain is melting at the learning and teaching side
    and it is taking leaps and bounds in training at present[​IMG]

    again i had no wish to offend anyone
    just cannot type quick enough to keep up with the brains ramblings


    sorry to reply so late bin working away

    Pike

    ps how do you do that quote thing at the start of post
     
  16. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    The easiest way is to hit the Quote button at the bottom right of the post to which you are responding. Or, enter:

    [ quote]

    [ /quote]

    but without the extra spaces. Here's a picture of the button in question:
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    Upset maybe. Concerned yes, hence my question.

    Apology accepted, yet you have my respect from the first sentence.

    Your passion is quite understandable. In Balintawak and other FMA's Baiting is part of the game of play. Unfortunately many who get a little knowledge seem to think that they game on the internet is much more fun to play then the game or practice. Some do not realize they are doing it, while others do it for fun or anger or ..., .

    Waffle is not the real issue. State things such as I have learned this from my instructor. This is our lineage. This gives credit to your instructor and also his/her back to GM Bacon for Balintawak. This also allows for people to then ask questions about your training and why something might seem or actually be different.


    I agree, even with a couple of decades of training and teaching in the FMA's I respect that people can offer me something. :)

    I am glad to hear this. Good training.


    Enjoy your posts here at FMATalk and as well as your training.

    Thanks
     
  18. Pike

    Pike New Member

    thank you very much guys for your info and knowledge
    and still learning how to use the forum[​IMG]


    can i ask how you guys got into fma was it from the begining or
    something different ? really interested in the path people went
    to arrive at fma

    Thanks again [​IMG]

    Pike
     
  19. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    It might be best to start a new thread for that, but please do so!
     
  20. Cruentus

    Cruentus Tactician

    This seems like a very strange conversation to me, because there is a lot more too weight distribution then simply determining what "percent" of your body weight is on each leg.

    Mobility consists of three things; 1. stepping, 2. weight shifting 3. upper body mobility (which way shoulders are facing, upper body lean, etc.).

    Power for the strike is best delivered through proper "weight distribution," among other things.

    I have to make a seperation between "weight shifting," which I define as changing the weight from leg to leg to move the upper body closer or further from the target (in other words, shifting my body), and "weight distribution" which I define as simply putting more weight on one leg or the other.

    I feel the distinction needs to be understood because if I can change my weight distribution to my right leg to hit someone on the right side to maximize power, without significantly shifting my body in that direction. Weight distribution can be a suttle thing. Or I can choose to both change my weight distribution and weight shift, in the case of a lean and block, for example.

    The point is, there seems to be a lot more to this then what can be adequetly explained on a forum; and that simply saying "50/50" or "45/55" or whatever is much too simplistic. Weight distribution changes in the fight depending on what your trying to accomplish.

    This is my take on the whole thing, anyhow...

    :)

    Paul
     

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