Balintawak questions

Discussion in 'Balintawak' started by fangjian, Aug 23, 2010.

  1. fangjian

    fangjian Jo Dong

    Here are a few things that have kind of confused me as I research the history of the Balintawak.

    1.

    -Remy Presas was one of the better fighters who came out of Balintawak. Possibly equal in skill to Delphin Lopez.
    also have heard
    -Remy presas never even finished the most basic of lessons in Balintawak.

    Remy Presas studied with Timor Maranga, Arnulfo Mongcal and Anciong Bacon for quite a while. That pretty much qualifies you for the rank of “badass eskrimador”. Which is it? and honestly if he was one of the elite in the Balintawak camp but never even finished the basic lessons, than there is no hope for someone like me:)

    2.

    -Johnny Chiuten would tell his fellow Balintawak brothers to test their skills, in which they would reply ‘our skills are to deadly for tournaments; and Chiuten would say ‘ how can you be sure?’.

    I thought Balintawak at this time period had numerous juego todo fights with rival eskrimadors. Why would Johnny Chiuten say this?

    3.

    -‘When Anciong was released from prison he called for a meeting for all of his students to introduce a new modification to the Balintawak, but few took him seriously.

    Really?!!! Anciong Bacon wasn’t taken seriously?!! What was this modification and why did few take it seriously?
     
  2. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    NOTE: All use of names is done with respect and any lack of title is not meant as an insult to anyone. Just a quick reply with first or last or nick names.

    A quick story. Remy beat up Delphin's Nephew. Delphin was not happy about this. Remy avoided him until he could talk to his instructor Anciong to ask if there was a chance for him in the fight. Anciong told Remy he could fight him but it would be a close fight. But also remember that Delphin carries a .45 . So Remy made plans to leave town.

    Upon Leaving he asked Anciong about teaching Balintawak and Anciong said he could teach but not call it Balintawak as he added in his own things that made it not Balintawak.


    Now to your first question. He started training with Moncal who was left handed which by the way so was Remy. He then trained with Maranga Moncal's Senior and and Maranga introduced him to Bacon for instruction.

    Remy had a reputation and would fight but he also was a survivior would not look to start a fight he had no chance in.

    I cannot speak as why Johnny would say anything or if he did say it. But, many of the Balintawak people wanted to draw a circle and the only rules was no grappling only stick fighting and GO. Many tournaments had rules such as forearm strikes and knee strikes were illegal. I said tournaments not the agreed upon matched nor the ones done in anger.

    I cannot speak to this, as My Instructor Ted Buot did nto comment on this request. But I can say that after and during his Prison stay he trained with some and he said NEW. Many of these NEW trechniques were old but that some others had either dropped or not taught completely or they had learned it from the student of a student. So as to say it was wrong, you call it NEW and people then look at it. But if it was NEW but also the same as the old at the same time then I could see where some might not consider it anything to discuss. But you would have to talk each branch and see what they have to say as to if they were contacted and if they choose to ignore Anciong's comments.
     
  3. fangjian

    fangjian Jo Dong

    I might not have brought up my question clearly. I was wondering why I've seen many people say that Remy Presas was one of the better fighters to come from Balintawak, and also some people say he never completed the most basic of lessons in the Balintawak. Such a contradiction.



    My number 2 question was about another contradiction. I've read this story from quite a few sources too. If Balintawak was regularly tested in juego todo matches than who cares how they'd do at some competition. They'd make it sound like Balintawak people were only training techniques in theory and never really testing them in combat.


    It sounds like you asked your teacher about my questions. If so, thank you both for your time. I have seen from some sources that what he re-emphasized were the body shifting.
     
  4. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    I have also heard that Doces Pares and Balintawak Clubs hated each other. But what I was told by my instructor Manong Ted, was that he or Noy' Anciong or both could stop by the club or the homes of the Doces Pares with no problems.

    Many times the problems were with students of students talking with other Students of Students about who instructor was better.

    As to your original (* now understood *) question it could be many reasons and only a couple will I list below:

    1) Some people did not like Remy.
    2) Some people thought he could not do Abecedario and Seguidas so no basics.

    One (1) from above could be personality, money or other issues even pride or greed or envy. I cannot comment on what was in their hearts or minds.

    As to item two (2) many people did not see him teach such a Balintawak Abecedario as I stated earlier he was asked not too by Noy 'Anciong. But in 1987, I drove from Flint Michigan to Detroit Michigan and picked up Rocky Paswik. I then took Rocky to the airport so we could both pick up Remy. I reached out for Remy's Bag and took his carry-on from him. He and Rocky hugged and started talking. The first thing out of Remy's Mouth was "What has Ted Taught you?". He then led Rocky through the Abecedario right there in the airport empty handed. But if you do not see something then one can make assumptions that might not be true, is a possibility.



    Sometimes students of students may not step up but would ride on the glory or skill set of the better fighters. I have seen this in modern schools and can only ASSUME that something like that also would an issue as well. While some would be Agok'd by their teachers they may not have sparred or had an actual fight. I did not speak to all of them directly, actually I only spoke with Ted and Remy and could only comment about them.

    But once again people are involved and people will talk and or write things to make themselves look better or to present it from the point of view they know as that was the only thing they were told.


    The Body Shifting was and is a major part of the Buot training. He left in 1974 and came to the States. So he would not have been there for when Noy 'Anciong was out from Prison/Jail. So if Ted Buot had it from his training and it was "NEW" in the late 1970's then it goes to what I said before. It was new to certain people, not necessarily new to the system.
     
  5. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer New Member

    And just because they skirmished with each other it doesn't mean they necessarily hated each other. Even Balintawak had sibling rivalries and some would beat the tar out of each other every now and again. That's just the way things were done.

    Exactly.

    Robert
     
  6. teovel'sBalintawak

    teovel'sBalintawak New Member

     
  7. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer New Member

    The Doce Pares club believed that the future of the FMA's was as an organized sport. Some within Balintawak advocated participation in these sporting events. Nobody could ever agree on rules and pairings. I don't think it was ever a question of the fighting spirit or prowess of Balintawak club members. Many of them were street-fighting veterans or fought individual challenge matches. Balintawak wasn't a social club for choir boys, after all...
    :whip:

    Robert
     
  8. yomitche

    yomitche New Member

    Ha ha! Choir boys!

    Good stuff! Thanks for illuminating the history. I regret some of the perceived rivalries, but agree that much of it probably stems from arguing students more-so than from elders. Which is not to say that plenty of conflict could not have occurred amongst heads of organizations, but I think the divisions may appear more "dramatic" (to us in the United States) than they really were. Understanding the complex relationships that existed amongst many of these people (many were blood-relatives or were God fathers to each other's children, for example), further confounds the situation.

    Also, no doubt in my mind, whatsoever, that actual "combat" is far more meaningful than prowess in a tournament. I enjoy participating in tournaments, and will continue to advocate their utility, but realize their worth in determining "street-worthiness" may be limited. My position may be nothing more, however, than a continuation of the debate the Robert has alluded to earlier.

    Just my opinion though. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010

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