Amy one know this answer?

Discussion in 'Pekiti-Tirsia Kali' started by Ron Kosakowski, Dec 3, 2008.

  1. Ron Kosakowski

    Ron Kosakowski New Member

    What did Lapu Lapu call his fighting system?

    And please don't say Lapu Lapu Kali! That is a modern title capitolizing on a famous name.
     
  2. rshawtx

    rshawtx New Member

    Ay dunt no! :)
     
  3. silat1

    silat1 Active Member

    Ron,
    I might be old and gray, but my old timers disease doesn't let me remember that far back.
     
  4. Ron Kosakowski

    Ron Kosakowski New Member

    Well, I ask because of the old Kali word debate with the , "well then what was it called" following. In reading various informations here and there, it seems it was debatable that he even used a Kampilan. On my page http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/Kampilan.html I put in that is was believed that Magellan was killed by a Kamplian.

    Philippine history is a little fuzzy so trying to get my site straight with the correct info is always controversial on one side and thumbs up on another. My feelings are the Spanish have been there to long. I can't see going deeper into the jungle to see what the old timers have to say. At this point, at least as I see it, a lot of Philippine history is wiped out. Though, I don't plan on stopping my research any time soon.
     
  5. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    Ron,

    There was an excellent thread a few years back on the Sayoc Kali website that had a lot of information about Magellan's death, early European contact with the Philippines, etc. I'll see if I can dig it up and post here.

    The concensus is that, sick, tired, and wounded, and weighed down by heavy armor in shallow water, and with his ships too close to give support by cannon fire or chain, Magellen's men were probably worn down by lance and spear attack by a force that outnumbered them 100-1.

    Lapu Lapu's martial art, if it even had a name, was probably just a term for tribal warfare understood only within one of hundreds of tribal dialects and variants that existed in the region at the time.

    Best,

    Steve
     
  6. kuntawguro

    kuntawguro -== Banned ==-

    And then there is the history that says Magellan was felled by a fire hardedned stick. Who knows what happened for sure- best to just keep on keeping on.

    have had a hard enough time just trying to sift thru the history of my own art. Seems its history has changed 4 times in 30years.
     
  7. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

  8. Even though you are right, that Magellan was beaten by a force that out numbered him 100-1, we must not lose sight of the fact that this method of conquest was used successfully across the South American continent by other conquistadors in the name of mother Spain.

    As Captain General of his expedition he was in a position to reap great rewards if he had succeeded in his quest. The fact that he died should not mitigate the facts.
     
  9. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons Member

    I tought the Navigator of the Magellen trip around the globe and with his death in the Philippines, had it recorded that Magellan was brought down just off shore being out numbered by natives using sticks and pointed sticks.
     
  10. silat1

    silat1 Active Member

    Magellan had left guam with a favorable impression.. Upon landing at one of our southern bays, he was met with some of the local natives who upon getting on his boat and preceeded to help themselves to some of his pots and pans, shoes and one of his smaller boats that was used as part of their life support system..

    He left the island with the name " Isla De Laderos" or island of thieves.. This is how guam remained on the maps for decades and almost centuries before it was changed to the current name..
     
  11. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    Cortes conquered Mexico with well under a hundred men. Technology and tactics!
     
  12. el maldito de cebu

    el maldito de cebu New Member

    the system's name on that time was not yet invented but I think they just train on sticks and they used machites in real combat than using stick in fighting spanish swordsman' I bet filipino swords are more thicker and better in architecture that spanic lean blades which makes the machite blades more favorable on the part of lapu-lapu's men.
     
  13. tim_stl

    tim_stl Junior Member

    and north america, and the philippines. but, the method of conquest was not the bravery of armored spanish conquistadores against nigh insurmountable odds, it was divide and conquer; the spanish were adept at using natives against each other to effect their conquest.



    tim
     
  14. blindside

    blindside student

    Full journal entry of Pigafetta is here:
    http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/magellan.htm

    Excerpted from that:
    So based on the only evidence we have, or are likely to have it was a "a large cutlass, which resembles a scimitar, only being larger."

    I'm not sure Pigafetta is an expert on weapons, but that doesn't sound like a Kampilan to me, it certainly doesn't sound like a "fire hardened stick," though that is a fine description of most of the javelins/spears that were being thrown that drove back Magellan's party.
     
  15. Ron Kosakowski

    Ron Kosakowski New Member

    I have seen this information elsewhere before. While i find it informative, is it conjecture i wonder. No one states where they got their info from in those forums. As iI see it, we probably will never really know. The Spanish basically destroyedall ancient writings considering it the writings of the devil and taught them the alphabet used today. Plus anything the old writings were on that were not destroyed have rotted as time went on. All we have is word of mouth...but can we depend on grandfather to grandson stories handed down through generations?
     
  16. Ron Kosakowski

    Ron Kosakowski New Member

    Cortes also brought in disease and on top of that, they were fully armoured which was quite an advantage to them at the time.
     
  17. Ron Kosakowski

    Ron Kosakowski New Member

    Wow, that was good information and the story seems to be from the survivers. they cannot determin what the lance as they called it was. I am sure they did not know the names of Philippine swords as of then yet. To bad they didn't draw what it actually was.

    All statues seem to be a picture of Lapu Lapu with a Kampilan looking sort of like this http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/Kampilan.html but a fatter version. I know the Kampilan has some different looks...this is also considered to be a Kampilan http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/KampilanBolo.html which looks nothing like the other one. In a museum in Manilla, you see the first link pic but as I said, the statues have Lapu Lapu with a Kampilan look with a fatter body to it. Maybe the Kampilan has a few different looks to it? Plus, why do they relate lapu lapu to the Kampilan I wonder in the first place?
     
  18. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    True...but in principle, he should have had the same vulnerabilities to New World diseases.

    Yes, that's what I mean by technology.
     
  19. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Senior Member

    The writers on those forums quote the following sources:

    Pigafetta's account of Magellan's journey (cited above)
    Oliveira's account of the same (from the writings of Karl Heinz Weiznor and Pedro Sastre)
    Philippine History (updated edition by Gregorio F. Zaida)
    "Aginid Bayok Sa Atong Tawarik" (an oral history from the Cebuano perspective transcribed by Jovito S. Abellan)

    as well as several others not directly related to Magellan's death at Mactan Island.

    This post on the Martialtalk forum points out that "kampilans" were also described as large "simitars." I found that particularly interesting because at the Vanderbilt museum close to where I live there is a room of Filipino artifacts and a couple of large kampilans catalogued as "simitars."

    Best,

    Steve
     
  20. Ron Kosakowski

    Ron Kosakowski New Member

    That can certainly explain why all the statues seem to have the Scimitar curve to the blade Magellan was holding. I did not realize the Kampilan evolved to a different shape like the ones we see today. Interesting!
     

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