Ages of the Grandmasters?

Discussion in 'General' started by Cruentus, Oct 28, 2005.

  1. Cruentus

    Cruentus Tactician

    Just thought we could have a discussion on the age's that certian masters were when they initially developed their system. How old was Edgar Salute? The Presas brothers (Remy and Ernesto)? Ray Dinaldo(sp?)? Any others to you would like to add? Also, what made them qualified enough to have developed their system? Lastly, how have these systems evolved since their initial development?

    :coolorang

    Thanks,

    Paul Janulis
     
  2. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I guess I don't know the ages for most cases--but then, I'm not sure tehre's always a crisp time at which the art was developed, as aopposed to an evolution. Prof. Presas couldn't have been very old when he started Modern Arnis in the Philippines, right?
     
  3. Palusut

    Palusut -== Banned ==-

    Right, supposedly, he was only 35 when he came to the US.
     
  4. JohnJ

    JohnJ Senior Member

    Many systems were created out of warfare and necessity. And through generations they evolved into what is currently taught. I believe some of the contemporary systems developed because of personal direction. Take for example Lameco Eskrima. The late PG Edgar incorporated what he felt were some of the most functional techniques from several systems which covered all ranges. He then formulated a syllabus in which to teach it. It was stated that he did it as a tribute to his mentors but I am fairly certain that his personal approach to training and teaching philosophy was a great influence. Part of evolving is not learning new things but improving on how we train the old. To adapt to the modern day necessities.

    Here is a link for to several well-known GM's & Masters who have since passed away. This may give us a general idea as to their years of involvement.

    http://fmadigest.com/Practitioners/legends.html

    Yours in the Arts,

    John G. Jacobo
    www.swacom.com
     
  5. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman FMA Talk Founder Supporting Member

    Excellent resource John! Thanks for the link.

    :bow:
     
  6. Cruentus

    Cruentus Tactician

    Nice link, Bart.

    However, none of this really answers my question, though. And, as it goes historically and generally speaking around the world, most systems that developed from warfare were not really intended to be "martial arts," but were simply combat systems that were meant to fill a need. The ones that were preserved usually developed a name later.

    But many of these systems were not developed directly from warfare. Many masters came from a fighting culture and direct experience, but not from military.

    Also, it is no doubt that martial systems evolved. But, my question is about what age did the master start teaching his style as a seperate martial art?

    Some were pretty young, no?

    For Professor Presas, Tuhon Dionaldo, and Master Salute, we are talking about mid to late twenties probably? How about the rest?

    Paul
     
  7. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I've heard people say that they were often young precisely because respect was based on fighting ability, not lineage (as is so important in Japanese and Chinese systems, say), and so a good, young fighter might start his own school based on his own style of fighting. But, that's just an anecdote! It seems to fit Remy Presas and Anciong Bacon at least, though, doesn't it?
     
  8. Palusut

    Palusut -== Banned ==-

    Tuhon Ray was about 35 when he became a Grand Master, a term that he doesn't parade around much, though he founded the concepts and organization of FCS a few years earlier.
     
  9. Epa

    Epa Member

    Here are a couple of dates that I took of different websites. Most of the websites are maintained by practitioners of the style so I'm assuming it's pretty accurate. Like Arnisador said, it's hard to set an official date for some of the styles because they don't all have an official date where they are founded, though several like (Lapunti and Lameco list official times the systems were created). Some of them just began teaching at a certain point (Tatang Ilustrisimo, Leo Gaje), while others opened up public clubs (Anciong Bacon, Angel Cabales, Leo Giron). So I just went with what seemed like a good starting point.
    I think all of the men listed below were qualified to teach through their previous training and personal experience in applying the arts and since there weren't ranks in the traditional FMA it seems that these men just chose when to start teaching. Though I think it's important to point out that many of the younger Grandmasters did not stop learning from other instructors when they created their own system. Edgar Sulite is a great example of this because he trained whenever he could with Tatang Ilustrisimo for years after the creation of Lameco. Here's a short list of FMA grandmasters (in no particular order), if anyone has corrections or additions that would be appreciated.


    1. Remy Presas: December 19, 1936 and founded Modern Arnis Federation of Philippines in 1969 when he was about 33. Before that he had owned a gymnasium in Bacolod City where taught arnis, but I’m not sure if he claimed grandmaster status at that point. (MARRPIO)

    2. Edgar Sulite- Born September 25, 1957. Created the lameco system in 1981 according to the website.

    3. Antonio “Tatang” Ilustrisimo- Born around 1905. He didn’t start to teach officially until Tony Diego convinced Tatang to train him in the 1970s. I don’t know if he ever claimed any title or considered himself the master of any particular art before this time or if he just considered himself a fighter. (memory from the book Secrets of Kalis Ilustrisimo)

    4. Felimon “momoy” Canete- Born in 1904 (New York San Miguel group). He began teaching at Doce Pares after the club’s founding in 1932. (Ramon Rubia’s San Miguel website)

    5. Ciricao “Cacoy” Canete- Born August 1919 and founded eskrido in 1951. (docepares.com)

    6. Angel Cabales- Born in 1917 and opened the first eskrima academy in the US in 1966 in Stockton. (wikipedia)

    7. Leo Giron- August 20, 1911 opened Bahala Na club in 1968. (Bahala Na website)

    8. Leo Gaje- Born in 1938, emigrated to the US in 1972 and began teaching openly. According to the Pekiti Tirsia Global website, he inherited the system upon the death of Conrado Tortal, though not date is given for this.

    9. Felimon Caburnay- Born 1915 and trained and taught at Doce Pares in the 50s and 60s. On he and his son December 30, 1972 officially founded Lapunti Arnis De Abanico, but the name was used prior to that, even into the 50s. (visayanmartialarts)

    10. Venancio “Anciong” Bacon- Born October 15, 1912 (http://www.vacmartialarts.com/vacmasters.html) and he opened his first gym in 1951 on Balintawak street (Visayan Martial Arts), though I believe he was teaching at Doce Pares before he broke off.
     
  10. Sheldon Bedell

    Sheldon Bedell New Member

    Grandmaster Louis Lagarejos (1935 - 2004) Sikaran
    started teaching in his mid to early 20's
    Master George Chartier (Lagarejos's highest ranking student) started teaching "Karate " in his 20's and later became a student of Sikaran

    Both of these men formed Sikaran into what it is today within the Lagarejos system. This system may be one of the few that dose not have a heavy emphises on sticks in it's early stages of training
     
  11. Cruentus

    Cruentus Tactician

    Wow. Great research Epa, and great info everyone else. :)

    Thanks!

    Paul
     

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