A true stick art

Discussion in 'General' started by Shaun, Apr 3, 2010.

  1. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    Funny thing about this topic...it all falls out the window when you actually use a stick properly..and by properly I mean the stick is now a piece of pipe or hickory...used in a manner where the person getting thumped doesn't even know it's coming. I have always found the soundest methods are those based on ambushing the sod and cracking him when he doesn't expect it..back turned, head turned etc...in this manner all thats truly need is a good chunk of something in your hand, a solid number 1 and the balls to do it (if necessary).

    In training everything is a give and take we all know this. Up the anti and put pipes or hickory in your hand..no pads and watch what happens...a lot of peoples game will change .. QUICKLY.....in this setting one shot can end your life and definitely end the altercation....so IMHO it's all a matter of taste. One thing for sure, no ones skill can truly be determined by a few clips on youtube, good or bad....

    ahh what an interesting thread...
  2. It sure is Mike!

    I was just going to reflect upon it for a while but I came across this vid just today:


    Here you can see Master Ron Saturno teaching the student to bait the block and then change the direction of the attack.

    "You bait the rat with the cheese and then you kill that rat!"

    Great comment!

    This is almost exactly the same as GM Yuli teaches in our system. I have no knowledge of the Serrado syllabus but the video is described as "Advanced Techniques". GM Yuli just teaches the concepts from day 1. I've heard PTK has the same principles later on in the system?

    Last edited: Apr 8, 2010
  3. gagimilo

    gagimilo Member

    Right, and also all of a sudden the mindset plays much greater role than superdelicate technical wizardry...
  4. Raul

    Raul Mananandata

    An inclination to superdelicate technical wizardy is actually another mindset. It all starts in the mind.I like to train as simple as possible, as artless as possible. Just play, move or move not, its your call. When you are playing, you'll run into some problems that you have to solve - while playing. You can also "solve" it after playing (or before) but its not as good as solving it while playing. If you prefer to find answers via off-playing or spectator POV then you'll run the risk of getting a gamut of solutions totally alien to the original problem.
    IMO, engano should not be used on untrained individuals, unlike in the rat-cheese metaphor, an untrained person won't be able to see the cheese.
  5. Again, I respectfully dis-agree.

    In a confrontation you do not have time to interview the other guy about his training. Also, I feel it is better never to under-estimate someone. It's probably better to "Over-estimate".

    As an aside I was working out with my old man for the first time in years a while back. He is a Sensei in Karate - his only main art for 20 plus years (but lots of LEO / Military type experience) and my start like most. He did something which didn't quite work out for him and he said "Well, that's because you train!". It's something I think about often and what I have termed in my own mind "Training for the lowest-common denominator". The fact that FMA'rs look like regular guys, some overweight and looking out-of-shape gave him fits...

    It's probably all hypothetical BS as Mr. Blackgrave will probably say it's the "Intent" that gets you over the line anyway and KISS. I guess that's what he's talking about the "No duelling, ambush the opponent" so you get and remain in the advantage, never letting the opponent have a chance. I'm sure / hope we'll hear from him soon about that!

    For me, we are taught to "Enganyo" behind everything we do and monitor what the other guy does and to prepare a solution. Sounds complicated I know but it it was natural there would be no reason to train (or "re-train") your body (and mind) to do this hours on end every week. If the bait fails you better have something behind it.

    Also, like Master Ron was showing in the video there is "Tres Presadas" as i'm sure you practice in the Ilustrisimo system Raul. It can be used to enganyo and set up the strike or as a three-hit combo - depending on what the opponent does.

    Those triangles again, eh?

    Last edited: Apr 8, 2010
  6. Raul

    Raul Mananandata

    Everybody uses engano, trained or not. Some uses it to probe, some uses it to scout for openings and some uses it to set-up a compound or indirect attack. Its a given that its gonna be employed, the questions gonna be are who's gonna employ it, why, when, and how. IMO, engano's usefulness will be too limited against someone who operates with the reptilian part of his brain. Simplicity usually works ergo the simple Uno will do until situation calls for Dos.
    Contradas of Ilustrisimo are designed to counter engano as well as employ it. Tres Pasadas is basically meant to counter evolving attacks. It is treated as contra con seguidas at the beginning but changes its function in the course of the Numerado drill. It will usually morphed into dos-media using para-pasa methods in different points in time depending on available factors. I don't see it as as another expression of triangle but a three-point beat framework that's more likely to work since adding more will simply transform a blurring multiplicities to a regular rhythm.
  7. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    My bitch is this..it doesn't come down to a duel...sure we train as such to build attributes...But ask yourself, when is the last time you have had a stick on stick duel to keep your butt alive or safe?....Now I can tell you the exact last time I thwacked an idiot with my asp who got out of line and played froggy...(He should have never told me he was going to his car to get a gun)...that was his fatal mistake, turned the back and thwack out it came and down came the bagsak...OVER!....

    As far as enganyo goes...I guess if your in a duel and experienced it might be a good trick..but in the ambush an enganyo is deciding on whether to curb samich his ass when he is down or leaving him to gasp breath in his own bubbling blood....curb samich always seems like the better idea. As my father always told me " When u put him down, give him some boots so he never forgets your ass"....

    As to preparing for a solution... I live in Texas where folks carry blades, guns, clubs etc..and usually have pack mentalities....if you lay back and prepare instead of react you might end up on the stinky end of the shite stick..and no matter how good or what anyone knows..if you get caught behind the eight ball your in deep kimshee. Train hard and smart...practical and tactical....do what ya gotta do, use what you gotta use...finish them in spades if they come calling...no qtr asked nor given

  8. You don't see "Tres Presadas" as a triangle Raul?

  9. Raul

    Raul Mananandata

    I don't even know what "Tres Presadas" is.
  10. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    I new a guy named Trey Pasada...he always had killer Ganja.....I think I still owe him about a $100.00 ;) .....his head was kind of triangulish come to think of it!...Hmmm a coinkeydink perhaps, eh?
  11. Raul

    Raul Mananandata

    Exactly my thoughts as well.
  12. What Raul? You know Trey too?! Small world :)

    Again, interesting seeing as you have several websites seemingly dedicated to keeping the Etymology of Ilustrismo terminology alive ;)

    Maybe I spelled it wrong :( Who knows, I am only concerned with the movement and if I can work it....

    Going back to the original point (if I may) for me the "V" angles that GM Yuli was talking about and demo'ing I posted earlier and what Master Ron was showing was the same. As no doubt a lot of the stuff is the same. GM Angel Cabales was a contemporary of Tatang Ilustrisimo and you can hear Ron talk about this in one of his interviews.

    BTW -if you draw a line between the two points of the "V", what do you get? :)
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2010
  13. Raul

    Raul Mananandata

    The guy from down under?

    The names are the links to the roots. They show where the fruits came from.

    Yep you got it wrong, there's no such thing as tres presadas.

    Its a variant of De Llave so I don't see it as an angle V or whatnot. The angle formed by the swordwork is not important.

    A line?

    You prefer to see sword "lines" on a single plane and describe them in two-dimensions, I don't.
  14. Sometimes I wish there was a "fishing" icon on this forum...heh heh. :)
  15. "The names are the links to the roots. They show where the fruits came from"

    Sure, they're important. But knowing the names means bugger all if you can't perform it. What you gonna do, write a book? You will never be able to capture the quintessential essence of movement in any words - let alone their "root".

    "Yep you got it wrong, there's no such thing as tres presadas"

    Oh, I see, sorry. That's how it was taught to me. I should have prefaced it with "In Bahad Zu'bu Master Yuli calls this movement....". My mistake. Genuine Apologies.

    The angle formed by the swordwork is not important.

    Please keep believing this.

    You prefer to see sword "lines" on a single plane and describe them in two-dimensions, I don't.

    To be honest Raul I couldn't care how one describes it. It's a general forum - we have to do our best with the tool at hand - words. Videos are better but still...

    It's how you do it in person that counts.

    I look forward to meeting you in August.

  16. Raul

    Raul Mananandata

    I'm sure mang Yuli recognized the importance of names. He deeply acknowledges it by having the names, Pamantukan, Indak Pilantikan, Repikada Pegada, Bahad Zubu, BZ Mangtas Baraw, and the latest as of now, BZ Bungga Santaku.
    If you wanna drill a CERTAIN (i.e. a classical technique and not something coming out of sudden inspiration) movement and it has no name then you have to say so many things just to send the CORRECT intent and get the message across.. or do a lot of histrionics just to start a simple drilling exercise.

    That's another function of names, you'll know from whom it originated right off the bat.

    The term De Llave is self-explanatory. The angle is the ruse so it can take/make all angles preferring none.

    Oh well, as the great Tuhon says, "Talk is cheap."
  17. And this is where we differ Raul.

    Who cares about the name, "if it's classical" or not as long as it works?

    Regarding that and your final comment I suggest you check your PM now.

    This is not what this forum / thread was intended for so let's fix it.

  18. Raul

    Raul Mananandata

    Just checked. You sure you sent it?
  19. geezer

    geezer Member

    Cheap? Better than that, talk is free! which is why I, a cheap bastard, hang out here. I've really enjoyed some of the discussions on this thread...especially Simon and Mike's conversations on the first few pages. Now this? You guys aren't really arguing about names are you? Sheesh... you must be getting tired and grumpy. I started with a WT/ Latosa Escrima background in the 80s. Rene didn't give a hoot about names, just what worked. Some of the guys I've worked with since have intense interest in names and tradition. Hell, it's all good, right?
  20. Mr Latosa is an awesome guy and I had the pleasure of doing a Seminar back in 2001 and meeting him.

    Yes, I too was enjoying the thread and frankly am saddened (but not surprised) by the turn it took.

    Anyway, as we say back home "It'll all come out in the wash" ;)


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