A true stick art

Discussion in 'General' started by Shaun, Apr 3, 2010.

  1. qwertz

    qwertz New Member

    Why do you think, that this is the most difficult thing to learn? Isn't good body mechanics always difficult to learn, whether it is with a weapon or not?

    Kind regards
  2. That's great. I was just giving examples of two blade systems I have experience of that don't. I am sure there are some that do and make them work.

    Going back to Arnisador's post would you use age uke / rising block in a street fight. Just curious....
  3. PG Michael B

    PG Michael B Oso Grande

    Having studied Goju Ryu for well over 8 years I can tell you that age uke is more than a block, as are all the supposed blocks of karate...they are also strikes and yes a rising block can be used as a quick forearm shiver....In a street warfare anything goes (fists, boots, blades, bricks, bats, guns, 99 Chevy Tahoe, buddies, pool cues, etc etc etc etc) and preferably their back is turned and you can ambush them into oblivion. It matters not where it came from or what it is called or whether it is designed for a stick based or blade based system. If one goes into the fray with all this trivial BS on his brain he is setting himself up for a major league fall. So yes an age uke can be used and should be used if needed.

    As to roof blocks....a lot of folks like to say "Oh we don't block, we parry or we deflect"...that's all fine and dandy and it may work really well in a set up training environment where one is learning his craft. Take that same person out of the comfort zone and put him in battle then we can see what he will and will not resort to...wanna bet he tries to block (it is a natural response and should IMHO be honed to a fine craft)? He had better because I see few thugs wielding tapered rattan...More like WONDERLAND Drive brain bashers...bats...bricks etc....go ahead and deflect if you want...but you had better be able to stop that bitch cold or run your ass off to gain distance and hopefully safety.....A lot of people have opinions based on their training theory....those same theories and practice routines do not necessarily mean that it is gonna come off as you expect it to..and if you expect it to come off clean then you are so far behind the 8 ball that you might as well **** your winn dixies and call it a day!

    So block, deflect, parry...blah blah blah...just get your work done by any means necessary..and as I always say....things that go BOOM are to me, a must ...legal or not.....let me see you deflect a 12 gauge blast from about 7-12 feet....and before certain folks pile on let me say " I base my words on experience..not theory..or not a perfect world society where folks believe in this silly supposed martial duel."

    It all comes down to the man...if your a puss and refuse to go for it or have that empathy spot that keeps you from hitting the button then it's all for naught..you might as well take up ball room dancing. If your a cat who doesn't loose much sleep over violence or mayhem then it is much easier to go for broke. There are cats out there who havent trained a freaking thing that will flat seal your fate..guys who have done nothing but thugging and bugging their entire life. They grew up hard and tough where street war was the norm....so if you can't muster up the nuts to get it done, violently,bloody and down right mean you had better walk a fine line and keep your pie hole shut. If not you may come across some crazy old bastard that breaks you off a piece of hell!
  4. Raul

    Raul Mananandata

    About roof blocks.. Ilustrisimo has Sombra, Cruzada, Media Abanico, Fraile, Pluma Cerrada, Tumbada, Vertical, etc. All techniques can block, deflect, and strike successively or simultaneously at the same time.
  5. A lunge punch is also a throw....

    Sometimes the application gets lost along the way.

    I disagree that blocking is a natural response. What is "natural"? If you train something 1000 times does it then become "natural"?

    BTW - after this thought provoking thread (and I am indebted to Shaun and Mike et all for their contributions) I purchased a steel bat last night and we worked it today v empty hand. We did o.k without blocks. My next purchase will be a foam one so we can swing it with a bit more intent.

    (like this vid here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onF2hnmn3hk)

    Maybe down the line we can post up something for a bit of critiquing.

    So thanks again guys for the discussion and for the motivation to evaluate what we do in a new light.

  6. Shaun

    Shaun New Member

    I think that good body dynamics are the most difficult to learn from my experience teaching FMA to people of all different sizes, shapes and experience.People instinctively know (to a certain extent) how to grasp a stick and to swing it with their arms and shoulders,but it is getting the whole body working together in a relaxed manner whilst holding to what many is a foreign object in their hand.

    Yes, correct body dynamics are always difficult to learn, but again when you factor in a weapon that can affect balance, this does add a further degree of difficulty IMHO.

  7. I completely agree.

    When I first started my previous FMA the instructor noticed I was using my wrist to power the strike and not getting the body behind it. So, they had a replica claymore sword and got me to do the same strikes with that. Later on in the same lesson he also taped my elbow to my body and again got me to throw strikes. It was a great lesson!
  8. arnisador

    arnisador Active Member

    I'm always suspicious of people who "don't block". These people are either much, much better than I am, or not playing with folks at the same level, I figure. It's a great ideal and I always tell my students that blocking is a last resort...but, we practice blocks.
  9. I can see the reasoning behind that and have trained in both methodologies (i.e "Only block when you're late").

    This video may / may not allay some of your suspicions.


    You can see GM Yuli discussing / demonstrating some different approaches to blocking.
  10. jwinch2

    jwinch2 Member

    When I trained Modern Arnis we practiced "blocking" often with a brace via the live hand. In the Inosanto-Lacoste blend which I am studying now, I have not seen that taught. However, when we spar I see people do it instinctively. As PG Blackgrave already pointed out, there is a big difference in pulling a deflection when people are swinging a slow angle one at you versus when they are coming at you 100%. There is a good chance that even if your timing is perfect and you manage to strike the stick/blade hand, that you are still going to get hit on the follow through. If that is a blade you could be in big trouble. We practice wrist/hand shots wearing pads and armguards and when we go full out, people often get hit via the momentum even when their timing and shot placement is good.

    I saw a video of Tuhon Bill talking about knife tapping where he stated something to the effect that (I am paraphrasing here so any mistakes are mine and not his): we do not sit around and practice tapping all day and tapping is not our first option when facing a blade. However, it is a technique that we train early because it is useful if something goes wrong or if you are caught unaware. Similar to how fighter pilots are taught evasive maneuvers early in their training. I concur 100%. There are A options and B options and oh $h!t options. What are you going to do in tight quarters if all that evasive footwork you have been practicing cannot be used due to lack of room? In my view, you had better know how to tap. For what it is worth, I view blocking in the same way. It may not be the first choice in many situations but you better know how to do it and how to work your technique off of it in case you have no choice in the matter.

    Keep in mind that I am new to FMA particularly when compared to many who have posted on this forum so this is just my $0.02 on the subject...
  11. qwertz

    qwertz New Member

    "perfection" is always difficult. but take a small person and show them how to throw a punch and how to swing a stick. I am quite sure, that this person will learn relatively fast, how to do serious damage with a stick and not that fast with a punch. So in this aspect it is easier with a weapon, than to do it empty handed. Maybe this may be different with a big muscular guy.

    kind regards
  12. qwertz

    qwertz New Member

    but the situations in this video are some kind of ideal, where the defender has plenty of time and space to adjust himself accordingly. And I saw there at least two techniques that could be considered as an roof block -- IMHO.

    Kind regards
  13. qwertz

    qwertz New Member

    it depends :)

    if I do not have the time, because maybe I saw the coming attack to late, I will do anything that has good chances of rescuing me. and I think a block is at least a good last line of defense. And beside this, I think there is a smooth transition between a passive block and an attacking block.

    Kind regards
  14. As Mike said the "Blocks" are better viewed as destructions so I agree. In the end who cares as long as you get out alive...

    I'm curious. Can you give me the time on the vid please?


  15. qwertz

    qwertz New Member

    sure. maybe not 100% typical, but some kind of IMHO. 3:30 and 3:47

    kind regards
  16. Sorry, you've lost me :(

    Do you mean these two passages:



  17. qwertz

    qwertz New Member

    more or less

    in the first picture, Yuli Romo is blocking/deflecting the strike and then going directly to the counter strike. I would say, normally the angle of the blocking weapon would be not vertical, as in the clip, but the rest is in my eyes typical for a roof block.

    the second picture is round a about half a second to early. at least it look like GM Romo is entering with a kind of reverse roof block there and then keeps on attacking.
  18. Sorry all, I don't mean to monopolize this discussion and further divert it away from the OP.

    I'll answer this one and for follow up please ask in the other video thread if required.

    Regarding the first clip. I may have a different understanding of "Roof block" I think. There are only so many ways of holding the stick and angles I guess...IMO this is not a "Roof" though I am open to the observations on others. The theme of this video is to work the "V" angles. You will see that the direction of his stick is the mirror of his partners. I would view this as more of a deflection.

    Personally, it reminds me of something we did in Wing Chun where you respond to the opponents punch with a punch of your own. With the correct angle (in that case "Centre Line") you were able to wedge the attack out of the way. I take block to mean "Passive". I don't particularly see the first motion as "Passive". Again, I am open to suggestions on that.

    The 2nd one is GM Yuli joking around in typical fashion. He is not entering with a "Roof block". It is enganyo/ bait. He has the stick above his head because he wants to invite a strike to his body. He is also closing the gap and has his stick at an angle ready to strike. Back in the day his competition fighters used to adopt a similar "guard" position. It reminds me of the tail of a scorpion for some reason.

    (like the start of this vid you can see the first guy adopt it prior to striking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbaeAtwANFE)

    If you attempt to strike his head he will not leave the stick there to receive your strike...

    Last edited: Apr 7, 2010
  19. qwertz

    qwertz New Member

    yes, what you are describing here is a roof block. :)

    and if your timing is good, you will just hit the opponent first, without any blocking.

    eg -- primarily the beginning: [video=youtube;EjVUz7G9k20]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjVUz7G9k20[/video]
  20. Yeah, the Latosa System has the same thing. It's not a block it's a strike. If the stick is in the way - so be it.

    I tried the same thing on Gm Yuli...he ducked underneath it and disarmed the stick with his neck. Not everybody is GM Yuli though not matter how much they want to be.

    I think videos and forums are mis-leading. I think it's better to go only go on what we've seen first hand, felt and for want of a better word "Endured". These things need to be proved and the chance taken to try them with other systems. Of course, it's a lot easier if people from other systems come to your area for tuition though!

    I have been privileged to see a variety of instructors from other systems come through here and try their "Roof block" and fail spectacularly - as I did as a mere novice. I've also seen many instructors not being able to understand why certain things didn't work on their first day. Some people never recover from that.

    Now, that may be the fault of the guy doing / attempting the block or the skill of the guy feeding the strike. Take your pick.

    At the end of the day I believe "Let application be your instructor" and if you can make it work - kudos.

    It'd be boring if we were all the same - and I'd sell less sticks ! :)


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